This week’s question comes from Darin. He writes:
I am trying to finish maple to a brown appearance. I am using a dewaxed shelac as a sanding sealer and this imparts a slightly amber tone to the wood and when I apply the col. maple gel stain I get an orange tone wood instead of the brown I would like. Is there a method that you use to obtain a brown tone finish instead of the orange one I am getting.
And here was my reply:
“Hey Darin. What cut of shellac are you using? You just might be sealing the surface a bit too much, so you aren’t getting the color change you should be. Also, be sure to use a blonde shellac since that emparts little to no color at all. Do a few tests on scrap to find what works for you. I would probably recommend a 1/2lb cut to a 1 lb cut. Now if that stain still isnt dark enough, then you might want to move to a darker gel stain. The gel stain will sit on the surface more and will allow you to more effectively change the color without depending on stain absorption. Rockler has a great selection of gel stains that I use frequently. Also, if you have a spray setup, you could always use a dye mixture to get a nice even brown color. Let me know if you need more info on that method. ”
For those of you who don’t know, maple is a tricky wood to stain. It tend to absorb stain unevenly which leads to a blotchy look. By pre-sealing the wood with shellac, you can even out the color absorption. This is exactly what Darin was trying to do.
44 Responses to “Staining Maple”
Does anyone have experience using a dye stain rather than a pigment stain on maple?
NF emailed me this advice:
I agree with the sage advice that you gave Darin. Sounds like maybe he used too heavy a cut of shellac in his sanding sealer. I use a much-thinned cut, about 1/2 lb or less, and use scraps to determine if the particular boards need an additional coat of sealer (usually
they do not). I try to use the least amount of shellac that will give me the “anti-splotch” result when I apply stain. Depending on what stain I am using, I may need to use a second or even a third application of stain to get the final look. That is, it may take a “primer” coat of stain to serve as a base for the final”color” coat. Also, the stain needs to be thoroughly mixed before application, in order to get the colorants uniformly distributed in the stain. Sometimes, I ‘ve been in a hurry and did not mix the stain and later found that some of the colorant had settled to the bottom of the container, giving me a much different result than I expected. The stain has to be uniformly mixed.
If one has more scraps and time to experiment, it may be that some dye could be added to the thinned shellac that would enrich the final look when the stain is applied. In Darin’s case, from the “orange” tone he describes, maybe a slight amount of blue-green, green, or yellow-green tint in the shellac sanding sealer would produce the brown color he wants in the finished (pun intended) product. His test boards would determine which combination is best for his case. As a final note, commercial stains are often shown with photos of how the stain looks on pine and other woods. Each wood and each tree has its own behavior, so Darin might need to use a blend of two stains to achieve the final “custom” color he wants. Don’t be afraid to experiment. Have fun with woodworking.
Did something similar with maple, but used a diluted brown transtint dye in water prior to the shellac. Came out brown instead of orange.
I was able to use a medium brown dye to slightly color the blond toned maple and then applied a 1lb cut of shellac and then my gel stain and the results were what I wanted. I wiped on the dye and I can see why you recommended spraying this it can be a little tricky.
Darin
to whom it may concern…
I just installed maple floors in my house and I im having a big concern as to how to go about staining the floors. Im well aware of the density of wood and blochiness it could create. Im trying differnet methods conditioners as well as stains and yet, I stiil cant figure out why it comes out the way it does. “Blochiness of coarse” Would you kindly write back to me and give advice on how to go about staining my floors.
Just reading aout Darins letter and the fact that he used a gel stain might be the route to take. kindly let me know what perticular conditioner to use as well as the type of stain product to go with. Im experimenting with Duraseal products.
Hi Vince. What I would recommend is using shellac as your sealer, instead of a commercial “conditioner”. You can get dewaxed shellac by the gallon under the name Bullseye Sealcoat. As I recommended above, you are gong to want to dilute to about 1/2-1lb cut. I usually do this in a very approximate way by diluting the Sealcoat 50% with denatured alcohol. Once the floor is coated, lightly sand with 180-220 grit paper. Then I recommend using a gel stain. Pick a brand you like. I prefer General Finishes. The important thing is that its a gel formula. Flood it on the surface and wipe off the excess for a nice even color. Then, apply your topcoat of choice.
I am honestly no that familiar with Duraseal products so I cant exactly advise you there. Good luck.
OK,
I am staining birch plywood and Poplar hardwood in the same cabinet. The color will be expresso (dark brown). What I really want to do is apply a stain, dye or solution that I can put in my HVLP and spray the entire cabinet without wiping and giving me an even color. Am I dreaming? How do I do this?
PLEASE HELP!!
Hi Ray. You aren’t dreaming. You can do this, but I highly recommend going with an alcohol or lacquer-based stain. Something that dries quickly, doesn’t absorb too deep, and potentially obscures the grain a bit. Normally that last part is something we want to avoid, but in your case, its a necessary step. We don’t want people to notice that there are two different woods in use. One thing I used to do quite a bit was make my own ‘toner”, using diluted lacquer and either pigment or dye, and sometimes both. Pigments, like UTC pigments (from the paint store) are great and will change the color in a hurry. But they will obscure the grain more than a dye. So many times I will start off with a dye and see where it takes me.
Here’s a mix I would frequently use. 90% lacquer thinner, 10% lacquer, plus your color. Add however much it takes to get the color you want. I find that little bit of lacquer helps lock down the color. And keep in mind you can add many coats to arrive at the color you desire. And if thats not strong enough, start using a little pigment in the mix.
This kind of work can be a little tricky, so feel free to email me if you have other questions.
Oh and keep in mind you might just be able to use a water-based dye to the same end.
From what I have been reading on this website, I think the solution to staining my birch/ poplar cabinet in a dark walnut color is to spray a fast drying dye on it. Can you recomend a mix and where to get the dye? I have a HVLP gun to spray it. I just need a mix recipe to do this right. I have worked all summer and ut to now on my entertainment center and I do not want to screw it up at the end. I know I want to spray the color on it and then spray the urethane as my topcoat.
Please Help!
Hi Ray. There is no sure-fire solution because there are many that will work. I recommended a mix above: 90% lacquer thinner, 10% lacquer, plus you color additive. You can do many variations of this mix to get the result your looking for. You also might want to check out the gel stain/pre-seal method I used in this video:
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/73.....chy-woods/
Either way, I would recommend sealing the surface first with shellac, then adding your coats of toner. Hope that helps.
I have a maple front door that I have sanded down to the bare wood. My customer wants it stained with a dark color stain like Jacobean. I have read many blogs about using dyes, shellacs and gel stains. I have never stained maple before and am a bit confused on exactly what steps to follow. Can anyone tell me how to go about in staining this door.
Thank you, Bill
Hey Bill. I recommend following the concepts outlined in this video: http://thewoodwhisperer.com/73.....chy-woods/
And use a gel stain to get the deepest, richest color.
You may even want to add some dye to your initial coat of shellac to give you some base color before applying your gel stain.
Can someone please help me????
I am staining my oak stairs to match my “gunstock” coloured flooring. The first two coats were great. When I stained the third coat it is starting to appear quite “red”. I am using the Polyshades stains with the varathane built in. I am tempted to use the steel wool and then a thin coat of a dark brown stain to get it closer to the gunstock colour but would really like a second opinion?????? Thanks
Hi Sandy. The problem with Polyshades is that you are adding color and polyurethane at the same time. So if you don’t like the color, it can be tricky to change it or fix it. If the color is pushing red, you might be on the right track trying to overlay some brown. Just keep in mind that you might start to muddy up the grain a bit since there are several layers of color sitting on top of the wood. But since you can’t really “remove” color with this product, its sounds to me like the only feasible thing to do is try to tone down the red with brown, as you suggested. Let us know how it works out for you.
I was doing some random surfing when I came across this discussion about staining maple. We have an old american foursquare with wood floors we would like to refinish hidden beneath the carpet.
All original woodwork, columns, etc are dark (fir?)and the floors we have revealed seem to be maple. We were thinking of staining the floors dark to match the existing woodwork better, plus we like the look of the dark floors that are popular now. Are we crazy? Should we sand and leave them natural?
Hi Kathy. If you like the look of dark floors, then I say go for the darker color. What I would recommend though is getting a few scrap pieces of maple and testing out your finishing method first. You don’t want to experiment on the floor. Once you get the color you want and you are satisfied with the results, then you should be able to do the same thing on the floor.
Hi there,
This is a great site that I just discovered. My question is in regards to finding a gel stain that matches the gunstock colour by Minwax. Any suggestions? Minwax and Old Masters don’t carry it. Let me know, thanks!!
Hello Ginger. I am not familiar with that particular stain. In order to match it up I would need to do a little trial and error testing to see what get us as close as possible. What I would recommend doing is taking a sample board with the Gunstock color already applied to a local Rockler store. Ask them if they can test a few gel stain samples on your test board for you. That way you don’t have to buy a bunch of cans of stain you’ll never use.
Is their an easy way to remove stain from a maple floor? Didn’t realize maple was a problem until we started staining. We used minwax gunstock stain and got a blotchy orange floor. Now we really need to fix it. Would like to get the stain off and just have natural sealed floor. What is best product to use?
Hello Marci Joy. Unfortunately, there is no “easy” way that I know of. I have no experience finishing or refinishing floors, but I have done plenty of pieces of furniture. And when it comes to maple, you usually have to strip and sand in order to get all the old stain out of the wood. When refinishing old floors, getting the finish off would be the easy part. Its getting all the deeply absorbed color out that’s the problem. And although you have no protective film on the wood yet, you DO have the color. So you still have to sand down far enough to get the color out. But stripping could help get a great deal of the color out of the wood. Follow that up with thorough sanding and you should be good to go. Hopefully it can be done without calling in the big floor sanders. I never thought those looked fun to deal with.
I am building kitchen cabinets using maple plywood and soft maple lumber for the raised panel doors. The soft maple has some grey areas which almost disapear with wood conditioner but it tones my stain color way down. I mixed this color myself since I couldn’t find the color I wanted which is a dark cherry with a hint of walnut. If I decide to switch to gel stain and use the bullseye method in your video, is it possible to spray a base coat 90% lacquer thinner, 10% lacquer, plus the color additive using a cherry color, can I adjust the color with the gel stain and get somewhat even results from the plywood to the soft maple?
Hey Ed. I might try a slightly different order. I would hit the maple with a light coat of shellac. Then I would follow up with the gel stain to get the wood close to where I want it to be. Once that dries, then I would switch to the lacquer toner mix. This will allow you to perfect the color with one light coat at a time, while also building up the base for your topcoat. Once the color is where you like it, switch to full strength lacquer and you’re good to go.
Hi, my husband built a maple cabinet with maple veneer plywood and maple doors. There are some dings and a small crack in the top I would like to fill prior to staining. I am using General Finishes wipe on gel which I have used before with success. I chose red mahogany which will stain to a medium color because of the maple. I am also using a pre-swtain wood condioner. The problem is trying to fill the dings and some “pullout” where the planer gouged too deeply. Any putty filler is coming out very dark and not the same color as the wood. I’ve tried several brands of putty, tried tinting the putty first, tried a mahagony color filler as well as a natural color, all to no avail, they just come out very brown, almost black. Now I think my problem is that maple just doesn’t want to take stain very well, so when I use putty to fill the cracks (All this on sample pieces, thank God), the stain comes out much darker on the areas filled with putty. If I stain the cabinet first and then fill with a putty stained to match, will the putty “stick” since the wipe on product has polyurethane in it? Your recommendations are most appreciated. It is such a nice job, I don’t want to foul it up with a poor stain results. thank you very much, Denise
Hi Denise. Depending on the severity of the dings, you really may be better off leaving them alone. As you’ve discovered, getting filler/putty to look natural is a VERY difficult endeavor. A crack is sometimes easier since it goes with the grain. So if the crack turns out a little bit darker, it tends to look like a natural grain line. But a ding in the middle of a panel is quite a challenge. And you may never get perfect results. So in many cases, steaming the dent is the best way to go. Hopefully the grain will swell enough to raise the dent. And even it it doesn’t fill it completely, I personally think a natural-looking dent is better than a perfectly flat filled surface. The filler will nearly always be more of an eyesore than the dent sans filler.
All that said, if you really want to do the filler route, I would recommend checking out Timbermate Wood Filler. Their colors are fantastic and they take stain in a very natural way. I would fill the dent first, sand flush, then hit the surface with your conditioner followed by the stain. Hopefully the filler will get you close to the natural background color. Then you can take colored pencils and draw in the missing grain lines. This actually works quite well if you can get the filler to match the background.
You are definitely doing the right thing though by practicing on scrap. If you dropped this project off in my shop, the first thing I’d do is run a bunch of tests in hopes of finding the best combo. Hope this advice helps.
Hi Marc,
I always appreciate when someone who is in the wood working business is not too pretentious to admit they unsure of something and to ask for help. Today that person is me:-) I’ve been commissioned to make maple night stands in a dark chocolate colour (in Canada we spell colour this way!), and I’ve had problems. First I usually work in oak, and secondly the customer is too cheap to let use the guy I usually get to do my finishing, so I went ahead and took on the whole job. Now I’ve got two night stands which (i think) look quite nice but still not chocolate. After reading the entries above, I’ve wondered if its possible to add a thin coat of shellac now and continue staining to get my darker colour, or must I start over. I’ve already tried three coats of dark walnut minwax stain. I’m not sure where to find gel stain in my part of Ontario (southern Bruce County for you fellow Canucks out there). The more experience I get in woodworking, the more I realize I need to learn more.
Hey Chris. I wouldn’t add any shellac as that will actually make it harder to get the color you are after. My suggestion would be to stop using the Minwax stain. Instead, try General Finishes Gel Stain (Java). This will get the color right where you want it. There aren’t many stains that produce that chocolatey color but this is one of the best. So with your basecoat of color already on the wood, the Java should finish things off nicely. Once it cures, just topcoat with your finish of choice and you’ll be good to go.
Hi Marc,
Its really sad to see a grown man cry:-{
thanks for your advice, but up here in the wilderness of Canada, we don’t have General Finishes Gel stains. Even Lee Valley, (and there head offices are in Canada). Lee Valley does have Old Masters® Gel Stains although I found this on there website, which I might add the website listed as being in stock even though the customer service guy said they had NO gel stains at all! The local hardware does have a Varathane brand gel stain, (they just phoned back while I was writing this); do you have any info on either of these products? the best I can do with shade for either is Dark Walnut. Maybe I should become a dealer for General!!!!
Are you at home in your new/old shop, or still settling in?
Chris
A good cry is healthy once in a while. :) Did you try to contact General Finishes to see if they have any Canadian Vendors?
Still working on the details of the new shop. Coming along nicely.
I wish I had read this before starting my library shelves 5 years ago. My husband and I used Minwax to stain them cherry. Three coats then a sealer. About a year later a whitish grayish resiny blotchy thing started occurring on every one (floor to ceiling) entire length of the room. Three months ago my brother installed new maple pantry doors with glas in my kitchen. He did two coats of Minwax cherry and now they’re doing the same thing. My Mom suggested a conditioner do I just finished applying that the night before last and it helped a lot on one door. Not do much on the other. On the door it helped the white comes through looking almost like thin crayon drawings. I can scratch it off. The grayer areas are not so easy. Help please.
Hi Susan. I really have no idea what the issue is from your description. Can you post a link to a picture or email one to me so I can actually see it?
We are trying to stain a maple bar counter in our restaurant to have a weathered, gray look. Do you know how we can do that? It was stained a cherry color, so we sanded off the stain to the original light colored wood. We will also have to protect it from all the wiping and spilling that happens on restaurant counters, but we still want it to have that natural weathered gray look. Any advice? Thanks!
Hey Kathy. There used to be a product out there that would do this very thing. It was a two part clear solution that would chemically react with the wood to make it gray. But dang it….I can’t remember the name. I know I tried looking for it again about a year ago and had zero luck. This might be a good question to throw to the folks in the forum: http://woodtalkonline.com
Hi, Marc!
I am most likely the least familiar with sanding,staining, well woodwork in general than anyone on this forum. I made a colossal mistake and took my husbands (just married and already screwing up!) beautiful natural maple desk his father made for him and sanded it down, poorly might I add to begin to stain it dark walnut (minwax). After the fifth attempt I was able to get most of the clear gloss coat off, however my sanding techniques left scribble-like indentations all over the wood, the stain only enhanced these horrible blotches. First, after having three coats (the third curing as I type) of the stain currently on, is there any way to remove them or simply cover them, the scratches? Secondly, like others I have noticed, maple is a pretty non absorbent wood, it will not hold the color when I “remove the excess”. Will the wood eventually, after say so many coats start to darken or is that attempt completely futile? Will the General Finishes Gel Stain in Java help me achieve my goal as well or have I royally screwed the pooch here?
Cheers!
Hi Nikki. Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but sanding scratches really suck. The only way you can really hide them is to cover them up with paint. But if you want to enjoy the wood grain, you need to resolve those scratches. My suggestion would be to sand the whole thing down again and just make sure its sanding properly. This is something that will test your patience. I would probably drop all the way back down to the lowest grit you started with. So if that was something like 100 grit, start there. Then move up to 150, 180, and then 220. Make sure you are sanding consistently and if you can, use a random orbit sander.
You also might consider using a chemical stripper just to make sure you get all that finish off the surface. Any finish left in the wood will inhibit absorption of stain, which might very well be what your already seeing when you try to stain.
Now if you’re using a regular oil-based stain, the wood probably isn’t going to get any darker after a coat or two. But if you use General Finishes Java on top of that, you might very well love the results. Gel stains don’t rely so much on absorption to work properly. So at this stage, its probably worth a shot to try it before stripping the whole thing down again.
hope that helps.
If I may add my two cents;
A local guy around here who does finishing for me (when I’m not too cheap or to busy to do it myself) claims to use either a water or alcohol based stain. He prefers water but it seems the alcohol based works better. He then held up his thumb to display a beautiful dark walnut nail and proclaimed, “but wear gloves if you use alcohol!” And I would add; don’t drown your sorrows and start drinking it;-)
Marc,
You should do a video segment on this (getting maple to an esspresso color). I’ve read blogs and blogs on this and you are the only guy that actually tries to answer the question (thank you). Most others say that it’s stupid to try or ask why even do it. I am trying to do it because my builder put a ton of dark esspresso maple cabinets in my house and I like the way they look. I’m not a fan of big tiger striping grainy woods. I like the grain subtle… And that being said, maple is affordable and plentiful in my area. Had I known what a nightmare this was going to be, just beginning woodworking, spending 2000 dollars on tools and wood already for my 10 piece full wall bookcase, I would have spent the extra money on another type of wood. It’s like pulling teeth spending money and time on stain and comming out with a latte color rather than esspresso. I’ve tried transtint dark walnut dye (resulting in a dark ugly 80′s guitar look). I’ve tried rustoleum premium wood care “Kona”. I’ve tried Cabot Ebony, Minwax Ebony, Miwax Dark Walnut Gel Stain, sanded from all ranges from 120 to 220, sealed with Minwax wood conditioner or just strait to the wood but I cannot just get a nice smooth dark color.
Also I would like your opinion. When I started building I started with cabinet grade 3/4″ birch ply without really knowing where I was going to find birch stock, and it is hard to find in my area hence my switching the face to maple. Do you think I made a major error in this mix of wood? The birch ply has a very busy grain much like your website background. Is it doomed to clash and look stupid? What wood would you suggest that is easy to finish but isn’t grainy like oak?
I am going to pick up some general finishes java tomorrow (and some schellac) and try that. I will post again when I get the result.
Help, please! Lol
Hey Denny. Given my current schedule, I can’t make any promises. But this would be a good topic for the future. Honestly, I haven’t done many espresso finishes so I would have to experiment a little myself. I would probably start by using some Charles Neil blotch control, followed by a dark brown dye, and finishing up with General Finishes Java gel stain. From there, I’d have to analyze the results. Its all about the test boards, as you well know by now. :)
Keep in mind that many commercial finishers use toners and pigmented stains. These can really layer on some thick color layers while just barely allowing the grain to peek through. This can be difficult to replicate in an average home shop. But if you have HVLP it can be done.
And if you are using a stain, I think you’re fine mixing birch and maple. It isn’t idea but they are very similar looking woods. As evidence of this, the background on my site is actually maple. :) I don’t think you’ll find a closer match than maple.
Marc,
Thanks for the reply! I’ve only just discovered your site days ago and I am thankful to see a guy speak intelligently on the subject of woodworking and finishing, not just someone breathing in a microphone while trying to think of what he’s going to talk about. And yes, if you find the time with your young family I’m sure people would like to see you tackle this particular subject. (A late “Congrats” on the kid by the way, they really change things, huh? – For the best)
I actually just got back from Rockler and I picked up the Bullseye schellac and a “Brown Mahogany” Transtint along with some GF Java Gel Stain. I will try a grain raise DNA and will test without as well), 320 sanding (if needed), gel stain, top coat. I hope it works as I am nickel and diming myself to death on stain. I would have rather had a new tool or applied that money to a decent HVLP which I don’t have but would love.
If I nail it down, maybe I’ll make a video for you. You can narrate it. I don’t like the limelight lol.
The reason I asked about the birch ply is that the grain is way busy in comparison to the soft maple face, but we shall see! Too late now…
If you have any last minute changes to my stain schedule, let me know!
Thanks again for the reply. It means a lot.
Hey Marc and Denny; If you are going to try experiments, try the alcohol based stains. The guy who usually get to stain my furniture said that is what he uses on maple because it penetrates better, (and wear gloves as he has the finger stains to verify good penetration!). He also said water based stains work well but then you will have to pre-raise the grain. I do not no for sure about alcohol. I had a very fussy customer who wanted a dark stain and didn’t want to spend money, so i finished myself (to keep the cost down). Minwax didn’t cut it, I took Marcs suggestion of a gel stain and got the colour I wanted. It was after this that I asked my “finish guy”. I was a little leery asing in the first place in case he was offended in my going on lone on the project, but he was great and helpful!! Still he recommended alcohol; and by the time your finished, you could use a cold one:-D
As a PS, why are all the cheap customers so particular??
Chris,
Thanks for the reply as well. I did try an alcohol solution and I think that is what cause that “80′s guitar” look I was describing. However I will try it again with the shellac as I applied it over Minwax wood conditioner last time. I does penetrate deep though. When sanding down through one of my test boards, you could see the dye in the grain move through the wood the deeper you sand. (Kind of frustrating when you want to conserve wood for future samples.) I will definitely give it another go. I hope the General Finishes is the answer to my woes.
Unfortunately the cheap/particular customers are usually the source of great referral business… a necessary evil I suppose LOL.
Helllo there, we just built a house and had our cabinets throughout our house custom build. they are beautiful Maple stained, but we are having issues with the stain flaking off or peeling off.. what is causing this? I have read other articls about maple being hard to stain but wasnt sure if this was related.. Please help..My cabinet man is going to try to fix them but I have a feeling they are going to keep doing this… so sad…Rob
Hey Rob. Unfortunately that’s not much info to go on. How were the cabinets prepped and exactly what stain was used? Sounds like a potential preparation issues to me.
Hey Marc, sorry about that. the stain used was Gemini Gem Tone Lacccuer wiping stain 770 stain base.it was a 50/50 mix of red mahogany and american walmut.(they turnned out so beautiful) He said he sprayed them on. But I am not the cabinet guy so I cant tell you exactly for sure all the steps taken during preperation.sorry. I think I am going to give this website to my cabinet guy maybe it will help.. thank you for your time. Rob
Yeah most times when a stain doesn’t take, it comes down to improper preparation or something in the wood itself that doesn’t allow the stain to penetrate. But I am hesitant to “monday morning quarterback” your cabinet guy without more information. But the preparation process is definitely the first place I’d investigate.