Dean alerted me to a blog post on FineWoodworking.com, who found an article from the Boston Globe (ain’t the internet great?). But the story was so interesting, I wanted to bring it to your attention to see what you thought.
Man Wins $1.5M In First of its Kind Saw Case
by: Jenn AbelsonA Boston jury has awarded $1.5 million to a Malden man who injured his fingers on a saw while installing oak wood flooring several years ago in a first of its kind case that claimed the standard design of American table saws is defective.
Carlos Osorio accused One World Technologies Inc., maker of Ryobi saws, of negligence for failing to include a flesh detection technology that would prevent most serious injuries, according to a copy of the complaint filed in 2006 in US District Court in Boston.
After five surgeries and years of rehabilitation, two of Osorio’s fingers are permanently disfigured and unusable, and he has suffered numbness and loss of feeling in three other fingers.
“Hopefully, this means the industry is finally going to recognize that catastrophic injuries could be averted and they need to make this technology standard so people don’t have these senseless injuries.” said Richard J. Sullivan, one of the lawyers representing Osorio.
One World Technologies said it had been advised of the verdict.
“We are evaluating the results with our lawyers, and evaluating how to proceed.” said Jason Swanson, a spokesman for One World Technologies.
“Notwithstanding the outcome of this trial and any possible appeal, we remain confident that the saw which was the subject of this lawsuit was well-designed and manufactured with all due consideration for the needs and safety of the consumer.”
Osorio’s case is one of more than 50 lawsuits pending throughout the United States against the major table saw manufacturers for failure to adopt the technology, which would stop a power saw blade almost instantly upon contact with human flesh.
During Osorio’s trial, an expert witness for the defense acknowledged that if the saw had the flesh detection technology, it would have created a 1/8-inch deep cut on one finger, Osorio’s lawyers said. Instead, Osorio suffered near-amputation of one finger and severe lacerations on four other fingers.
Now if you ask me, this is up there with the McDonalds hot coffee incident. You guys know I am big on safety. I even created Woodworker’s Safety Week to raise awareness. But if you were a friend of mine and you cut your fingers on a standard tablesaw and tried to sue the company because they didin’t use “flesh-detecting technology”, I would probably smack you upside the head. And on the ironic side of things is the fact that they guy was using a relatively inexpensive Ryobi tablesaw that most likely cost $200-$250, right? Guess how much that saw would cost if it had “flesh-detecting technology”? Given the way SawStop works, and assuming that’s what we’re talking about here, could that Ryobi saw in its current form even handle the impact of a SawStop break in action? Regardless, if all saws were required to have this technology, I would imagine that the $250 tablesaw would be a thing of the past. And whoever bought this saw in the first place, would most likely be shopping on Craigslist to find an old saw in his price range, instead of one of these new-fangled ones with the safety device.
One other question I have that wasn’t answered by the article: was he even using the stock guard? While I admit those guards aren’t the most user-friendly, they DO stop you from putting your fingers into the blade.
Oh and by the way, this is probably a great time to mention a new product we will have in our store very soon. Its called the Wood Whisperer Fun Suit. Now you can throw yourself on top of a spinning blade without a care in the world! (Thanks for the photoshop work Bill!)
So let’s hear your thoughts on this. Its a hot one!
198 Responses to “Man Awarded Money For Tablesaw Accident”
They should fine him $1.6M for being a dumbsh*t. That way he would be around $0.9M in the hole since the lawyers got anywhere between 40% and 60%
And revoke his woodworker’s card.
Here is a perfect justification for I.Q tests to be given before sell this type of equipment.
oops should say “selling” not sell
jurors are usually numb-nuts mostly. Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but with the expense of paying 90 dollars, if they were to keep the price to 250 on that saw, would be quite a pretty penny to replace the mechanism in comparison to the price of the saw. not to mention the price of a new blade since that safety device ruins the blade too. Imagine paying around 140 for an accident that’s more than half of the price of a 250 dollar saw right there. granted I do think the 90 dollar is way cheaper than new fingers. But that guy has cost us budget minded woodworkers dearly.
I can say honestly I don’t use the guard at all on my saw but I take other precautions not to put my fingers in harms way.
Not only that, but I am prepared to take responsibility for my own stupidity in the unlikely event that I stick my fingers into the blade.
I don’t need some nanny-state to do it for me.
So since flesh detection technology exist would it be fair to assume that all power saws should have them? Should we be expecting a Stop device to be available on our jig saws soon? Take it a bit further and we’ll have someone to blame for every time we smash out thumb with a hammer. This is just another example of the lack of personal responsibility.
SAFETY
That’s all. In Europe it is forbidden to take away the build-in protection features. The two main ones are the riving knife ( kickback) and the dust collector mounted on the riving knife (finger & arm protection). If you do so the insurance company does not have to pay. We can’t buy dado blades in Europe because they are “not safeâ€. In my opinion if you like woodworking deal whit the factor that none of the tools we use are safe, they are sharp or turn fast. USE YOUR HEAD not your fingers.
http://community.thewoodwhispe.....e=activity
are you saying I should use my head to push the wood through my table saw? that would get kind of crazy..but it would save my fingers =o)
“In Europe it’s forbidden..” I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t make any sense. The insurance company might give you a hard time if they can prove that you where in neglect, but that doesn’t make it illegal. At least not in Norway (not EU-member, but we implement pretty much any EU law).
I agree with Marc, use the smarts you were born with. Is it getting to the point where companies need to make their products idiot proof. I agree, safety is important and it starts with knowing your tool and how to use it. I think the Saw Stop saws are great but I don’t want one. I don’t want to be lulled into feeling I don’t need to keep my head in the game because the tool will think for me. Next we will see someone with a law suit against the manufacture of their kitchen knife set because the cut themselves cutting vegies for dinner.
WAKE UP PEOPLE!
I guess there were no woodworkers in the Jury!!!
You can bet the plaintiff’s lawyer made sure to exclude from the jury pool anyone with a woodworking background. Wouldn’t want to interject common sense into the proceedings.
Hopefully the appeal will go in favor of Ryobi because unless we want to live in a bubble we need to wake up and use our heads. I’m all about safety and proudly have all my fingers. I have that exact tablesaw, it was only $88 (10 years ago) at HD and I bought it when I had no space and needed to do some work, it worked great (of course it does not have the accuracy of a cabinet saw) and seemed plenty safe. I’m sure if he had some McDonald’s coffee in the morning to stay alert he would not have had such problems on the TS.
I keep telling everyone about the upcoming “bubble wrapped society” as I call it, but nobody believes me…
Bryan,
I totally agree! We are slowly becoming over protected and let other people do the thinking for us…
No wonder UL gives Festool such a hard time to bring in those very innovative powertools from Europe..
Sadly, it seems our enjoyable pastime/hobby has attracted the attention of lawyers. Now if the industry follows trends we cn all look foward to much higher pricing. When a court in our country allows something like this, it opens the door. Something to expect in the probably not too distsant future would be manufacturers adopting a share the burden attitude. This could mean requiring vendors to carry product liability insurance. I work in aviation maintenance and have seen what silly litigation can do to the price of even simple parts or equipment in a very short time. Please be smart and safe when you work, and accept when something is your own fault. A world without lowcost power tools is a world where there will be far fewer people starting a new hobby like woodworking.
This is not an easy topic because there are many things to consider. For example the argument that including the saw stop feature in all saws would make them really expensive is a important one. But I’ve head Marc many times applaud the decision to include riving knives in all saws. What if riving knives would have a big impact in the cost of the saw?
What I’m trying to say is that we must be careful with our arguments because many of the ones I’ve heard against the saw stop technology can be applied to hard hats and steel toe boots in manufacturing environments, seat belts and air bags in cars, helmets in motorcycles, automatic door switches to turn of your microwave when you open the door and many other security features which are part of our daily lives and also have a monetary cost and may also not be necessary if we are always on top of our game and never do anything stupid.
Keep in mind that SawStop technology is only expensive because the holder of the patent demands an exorbitant fee for licensing its use.
A standardized SawStop safety module, produced in quantity, should retail for no more than $20-30 dollars. There’s nothing particularly high tech or difficult (or magic or voodoo) in the module either mechanically or electronically.
Why would you think any fee Saw Stop charges to be exorbitant? It is their product. They did the r&d. Anything less than the cost of doing your own r&d is saving you money. Also putting a brake module in a small benchtop saw is probably not a very good idea. There is quite a bit of energy stored in that thin spinning blade, so any saw will probably need to be designed to work effectively with a brake. There is nothing keeping any of the larger manufacturers from developing their own innovative safety features. Marc sure struck a nerve with this article.
“Why would you think any fee Saw Stop charges to be exorbitant?”
Why wouldn’t I?
“Anything less than the cost of doing your own r&d is saving you money.”
Anything more than the cost of any potential lawsuits is *loosing* you money. At the *minimum* rate I saw linked elsewhere (3%) that Gass had negotiated with Ryobi, all they had to do was sell more than $40 million dollars worth of saws to pay less for this suit than SawStop would have cost them.
Anyone want to bet that Ryobi has sold less than $40 million dollars worth of saws in the last ten years?
Well…make sure you say $40MM dollars of profit. And assume that Ryobi makes less than 20% of profit. So Ryobi would have to sell over $200 million worth of product. Then there is the beaucracy of regulations to contend with and the change over in manufacturing operations to use the new technology. No…I think it was cheaper to have the insurance pay the $40 million claim.
SawStop technology might, indeed, be too expensive for manufacturers to license, and I agree that the parts required for it are probably less than $100. I think the real barrier here is manufacturer willingness to admit that they’ve ever produced anything that’s any less safe — they simply follow the law. Split guards and riving knives are considered usability features, not safety features.
In other businesses, if you’re trying to compete with another company that has technology you don’t have, you invent your own. There’s nothing stopping manufacturers from coming up with competing technologies. Chances are, the SawStop patent is specific enough that a few changes can be made to avoid infringement.
As for judging folks who accidentally cut themselves, suffice it to say that *accidents happen*. You can’t use a guard for every cut, and you can’t guarantee that you won’t suddenly lose your footing. It’s always good to have a back-up plan, just as airbags are to seat belts in cars.
The thing is, safety features to count for much under the law (AIUI) have to be extensively tested and proven – preferably by an independent agency. (Something I might note, there is no evidence SawStop has done.) A company is only liable for what it puts into a saw, to be liable for failing to put a safety feature in the plaintiff has to prove deliberate negligence – something very hard to do.
“Chances are, the SawStop patent is specific enough that a few changes can be made to avoid infringement.”
Only if SawStop’s lawyers were particularly incompetent as the general rule is to make patent claims as broad as possible.
Profit through litigation. Everyone is a victim of something I guess… It must suck to have your fingers chopped up, but still, the fault of the manufacturer? I don’t think so… These lawsuits set dangerous precedents for almost every manufactured object out there. If I drop a brick and break my toe is it the fault of brick maker? It doesn’t include anti-toe smashing technology. If this is the path we are going to take, nobody will ever been able to afford anything and eventually we will all wind up as pink goo anyway because the last shred of self responsibility will go right out the window.
Just added a picture of a new product offering called the Wood Whisperer Fun Suit. Check it out above. :)
Its missing the outer layer of bubble wrap and a splinter can still get through that eye slit… :)
Well obviously you still need to wear your WW branded safety glasses*, ear protection* and knee pads* underneath it.
*Also available from the Wood Whisperer Safety Store for the low, low price of 4 easy payments of $19.99!
Marc, will you be making this new woodworker garb available to Guild members? I need a 42L but you can skip the sword as it’s far too dangerous. I wonder what the market would be for bubinga-colored clay?
Cheers — Larry
Cool! I comes with a two handed marking sword. Think I want one.
By this same argument, auto manufacturers should have to include robots with all their cars that automatically take over and drive for you in the event of an accident. The robot will take up a passenger seat, add 500 lbs of weight, and triple the price of the car, but it will make it safer. Cars will become unfordable by most, so working class people won’t be able to get to their jobs unless they buy used older models without the robot. But it’s all in the name of safety and padding the pockets of the lawyers.
This is an interesting verdict. I assume that SawStop has patented their technology, correct? And, if I’m not mistaken, I think that they started selling them around 2007. Also, as far as I’m aware they haven’t licensed their technology out (or I assume there’s be more saws with this included). So basically Ryobi had to pay 1.5 million for not inventing a technology, and not being able to license it?
His story is that Steve Gass went to all the major manufacturers and was turned down by all of them.
Was the licensing deal he was offering reasonable? Who knows? I would have loved to have been the fly on that wall!
I make no judgement about the merits or lack thereof of this case, or the merits of Mr Gass. I would only address the product. I don’t think you can deny that having a sawstop set up on every saw would greatly reduce injuries.
Speaking of personal responsibility is all well and good, but there’s a reason they call them accidents.
So the question becomes how this can be done and how reasonably it can be done.
Some have said that a comparable saw, without the sawstop, would be $1,000 less.
You must remember that he is now the only game in town. If manufacturers did use his technology, voluntarily or not, the price would come down considerably, based on volume alone. I’m guessing by the components in the $200= $300 range, quite possibly less than that.
So while it may knock some people out on affordability, it would make it a lot safer for many more.
Taking affordability out of the equation, I’d rather have it than not.
I don’t think it should be mandated, but I do think it should be widely available and that you should not be relegated to buying one brand of saw if you want that level of safety.
Personally responsibility does not and will never prevent accidents from happening. however when they do one should realize that the manufactures are not always to blame. You would blame and parachute manufacture if the sky diver neglected to pull the rip cord.
HUH? Is that directed at me? I don’t know how you came to that conclusion from what I wrote.
I said that we would all be better off with another safety device. You don’t think so?
Where did you see me blame a manufacturer for anything? What post are you reading??
Per an interview you can find on Youtube, they approached Delta and Delta’s feedback was that “safety doesn’t sell”.
I agree, safe methods of work save fingers. A proper push stick, good safety habits and keep you hands away from the sharp spinning parts. Don’t work without a gard.
Just more crazy lawyer stuff.
What do you call 100 lawyers in chains at the bottom of the ocean??
A good start;-)
I have the same exact table saw. I bought it on sale for $99, regular price $125. It is a cheap table saw but it gave me the woodworking bug. I am currently upgrading my cheaper tools to better ones. I have made many cuts including coved raised panels and recently my shaker table tapered legs.
This saw is as safe as any other non-flesh detecting table saw providing you use the guard, good push sticks and common sense. THey have opened fraudulent cases wide open for not only table saws but bandsaws and circular saws. Next on the chopping block are handsaws and chisels, possibly even bench planes.
If you order a cup of hot coffee, don’t put it between your legs as you drive off. If you use a table saw, keep your fingers away.
As a physician who pays exorbitant malpractice insurance that is jacked up because of frivolous lawsuits, I am incensed when I hear about another one of these frivolous lawsuits. The guy made a decision to buy and use a saw that did not have the technology he is suing for. If he had been using a Sawstop and the mechanism failed and he was injured , only maybe then would he have a lwsuit. But all this will do is raise prices and limit accessibility.
I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head here. There are saws available with and without this feature. He made the decision not to purchase the technology and yet he still sued. That doesn’t make sense.
If your arguement is that the tech is too expensive…well, that $260 saw would have been more with the “flesh detecting technology” on it.
Of course verdicts like this are intended to move manufacturers towards including safety technology as it is developed. While Saw Stop may have a patent on the current technology, and thus a monopoly, it is a temporary one, as the patent will expire. This was a products liability suit, and the jury should have been instructed to reduce the award by the amount that the plaintiff himself was negligent.
This is just ridiculous. This guy is professional contractor using the saddest little saw on the market. I can guarantee there was not push stick, no guard, and no common sense involved here. If this saw had flesh detection technology, this guy would have never bought it because it would have been way outside of his budget. Well who laughing now. I think I am headed out to shop right now. I dont think my brad nailer has flesh detection technology either.
I agree with Marc, this kind of stuff just P____ me off.
So they are going to need to add this to a drill press, router, circular saw, band saw and so on. I wonder how they will add it to a lathe?
Power tools are dangerous, accidents happen, but it doesn’t mean you win the lottery.
In the long run this will cost everyone who goes inside a building or has furniture that is built with power tools.
dw
So long as manufacturers do a reasonable job of designing safety into their products they should not be held responsible for what consumers ultimately do with them. We don’t know if the guy had the guard in place or was using safe practices. And even if he was, the piece he was cutting may have had a defect that played into the event. At any rate it’s not the manufacturer’s fault. Now, if the blade had flown out of the saw and hit him, or the stop switch failed or he was electrocuted when touching the table top, maybe you’ve got a case against the manufacturer. That is, assuming you didn’t do something stupid to the machine to cause the failure.
I’m not going to comment on the merits of the verdict since I’m not familiar with the actual evidence. However, I will say this. I own two cabinet saws made by the same company. One of the saws is roughly 70 years older than the other and the only true difference between the two is that the newer one came with an improved fence and more powerful motor. You can talk about personal responsibility all you want, I’ll probably agree with you the majority of the time. But the the fact of the matter is that these tool manufacturers have been aware of inherent safety issues for a number of years and simply ignored them. While I’m not encouraging people to run out and file a lawsuit, the truth is that these manufacturers aren’t going to get off their duffs and make meaningful improvements until they have to.
@Lipster – I 100% agree with you. The only reason that saws now come with riving knives – a much safer, more useable alternative to a splitter – is because it is now law. Manufacturers didn’t do it out of the kindness of their hearts. The did it because their was no choice. I am not a fan of regulation on everything, but it is ridiculous what passes as “innovation” in the power tool industry. The Saw Stop is – in my opinion – the most important innovation in the last 20 years in the power tool world. The fact that EVERY manufacturer turned it down shows you that they care about the bottom line, and not the safety of the users.
I always hear that people say that it’s not worth the money to buy a Saw Stop, but I always ask them, “How much would you pay to GUARANTEE that you would never cut yourself on your tablesaw. $1000 seems like a bargain to me.
“$1000 seems like a bargain to me.” That’s the point; you can choose to pay for the technology or not. Obviously you aren’t willing to pay any price to maximize safety, and what is a bargain to you may be prohibitively expensive to the next guy. Adults get to make these decisions, or at least used to. Once “flesh-detecting devices” are mandated, there won’t be a choice. Laws didn’t invent riving knives; the reason the weren’t on every table saw previously was that consumers voting with their dollars often chose models without them. Believe me, “Big Tool” is not crying itself to sleep over new laws requiring consumers to buy more expensive products or over the creation of more hoops for potential smaller competitors to jump through.
lol does that suit work for nail guns too
This is ridiculous!!! The guy is really someone else trying to benefit off his stupidity. On the other hand, I think I am willing to lose 2 fingers for 1.5 mil, haha.
hey, but sad truth is the lawyer will get a big chunk of that !!
Personal Responsibility. Get some.
This all speaks to a bigger issue; courts and legislation meddling in private industry.
Allow the market to take its course in regulating saw safety features.
When I get a new saw, I’m buying one with a riving knife; not because its the law or because there is nothing else out there but because I’m willing to pay a premium for a feature.
“But but that excludes people who can’t afford top of the line safety features”. Fooey I say. If you can’t afford a SawStop, you can certainly afford some brains — they are free. Don’t put your hands in the saw blade.
I feel if you cut yourself on a table saw, you are doing something stupid. With that said, I own a SawStop. A lot people say the SawStop allows you to be stupid, but I disagree. I am even more caution now, because I don’t want to trip the saw!
I also heard SawStop tried to sell their technology to some of major table saw manufactures, and they were turned down. So they went off and made the saws themselves. With that said, should all saws be required to have this feature? Not at all. If used correctly just about any table saw can be used safely. Can our table saw safety be improved, I think so. Recent improvements have a been a big step forward.
Mike
I agree with Marc(and seemingly the majority on this site) on this one and I own a Sawstop. Care needs to be taken when operating any saw because a blade spinning at 3-4k is dangerous, simple as that. Common sense. I would hope that as a society we could use better reasoning in lawsuits like this. Was the tool defective? Was it used properly? Were safety features ignored? If used properly with no manufacturing defect or malfunction cars/saws(insert dangerous device here)/skateboards can be enjoyable and even fun to operate without loss to life or limb. If you bypass OEM safety features or ignore proper operating protocols you may be hurt and should not be able to sue for excess compensation in a matter like that. Makes sense to me but therein lies the problem. Common sense isn’t as common as it once was.
Dang, I accidentally stuck a screwdriver through my eardrum. Why don’t they make those things safer. I guess I’ll sue.
DD
That gives me another great product idea! The rubber screwdriver!!
Marc just make sure that rubber screw driver doesn’t have any latex in it or Robert Vaughn will be on TV saying “have you had an allergic reaction to The Wood Whisperers rubber screw driver? If so you might be entitled to compensation call the law office of sleazy lawyer @ 1 800-123-4567… Tell him YOU MEAN BUSINESS” LOL
Speechless
hey if this guy who sued is a guild member can we vote him out. I will pay his membership fee so that Marc does not lose out.
haha, lets hope this isn’t one of our own. :)
Part of why so many people LIKE riving knives is preceisely because they are inexpensive and work. I’m sure we could think up of some convoluted expensive object that would serve the same function as a riving knife, but since we already have the riving knife and it’s cheap, it SHOULD be included in all saws.
We all want to be safe, but within reason of cost.
Kurt, I think you are absolutely right and riving knifes are a good example. The problem with the saw stop technology is not that it gives you a false sense of security, or that you will then stop caring and trigger the fail safe every week. The problem is cost, at this moment it is to expensive but I hope in the short future it will, like many other safety features, become more available and affordable.
Anybody who would become careless because they have a Sawstop should probably be prevented from breeding! I really don’t see that happening.
Do people go careening down the streets more or do more drinking and driving since seat belts and airbags were introduced?
Civil law is in major need of reform. As it is, it is smothering this country. It is one of the main reasons that health care is so out of control. Check out this link for a little different perspective. http://www.ted.com/talks/philip_howard.html
What this lawsuit does is make industry standards even more meaningless. There used to be some protections for manufactures if their products meet or exceed industry standards set by the Feds. Greed and Lawyers (or should I say greedy lawyers) seem to rule. (I wonder if we can find one of those lawyers to file a class action lawsuit against that judge and jury for stupidity?)
While I don’t think that all saws need the sawstop tech on them. I do think that manufacturers have been neglect for not having riving knives as standard equipment.
I own a sawstop and I’m more careful than I’ve ever been. I view the extra cost as an insurance policy if I ever do have a serious lapse in judgment. I’m a programmer and I need my hands to make money, plain and simple.
This is so ridiculous, depressing, and sad that the world is going in this direction. There should be something set up like the oscars to promote reason, common sense, balanced decision making, and then something on the flip side like the Razzies to make fun of the total ridiculous.
They’re called the Darwin Awards (seriously!) and I think this guy deserves one!!!
GOOD GRIEF .. in the time I took to read 20 comments, the # of comments jumped to 37….
so I am 38 … no .. 39 … no ah whatever. I can’t count.
The first thing I want to say is: WHAT AN A HOLE!!!! This guy obviously is looking for free money, which by the way is available through our wonderful welfare system. If you dont know you can loose your fingers on a table saw you probably should not be allowed around one. Law Suits like this is why doctors are so expensive, its not all money they are taking home, its the rediculous Mal Practice Insurance they have to pay which is high because of law suits, this is the same thing. Woodworking tools will winde up being rediculously expensive due to Law Suits like this.
I have to agree with everyone else, it just seems crazy. Can I sue the maker of my coffee table because it doesn’t have flesh-detection technology? It could have prevented a fully stubbed toe!
Q: What do you call 10,000 trial attorneys at the bottom of the ocean?
A: A good start
Q: What do you call 28 trial attorneys in a bus that goes over a tall cliff?
A: A waste of space – you can fit more than 28 attorneys on that bus
Lawsuits need to be capped at medical costs, unless malicious intent can be proved. If a suit is brought forward and the claimant does not win, he/she should pay for ALL court costs. We need to take personal responsibility. Yes, this is an inherently dangerous field and if we CHOOSE to enter it, we should take that responsibity.
In regards to government imposed safety devices, this is best left to the capitalist system. Those that really think the added protection of a Sawstop system or a riving knife is worth the money will give their monies to those companies offering those products. If enough people feel the same the industry, as a whole, will comply.
Dang…I just spilled scalding hot coffee all over my lap from my The Woodwhiserer coffee mug. Nevermind what I just wrote. I’M GONNA BE RICH!!! Marc, you’d better get your attorneys ready!!! GEESH!!!
It appears that this was a jury comprised of the plantiff’s peers. I guess Forrest Gump was right, “stupid is as stupid does.”
There’s an aspect to this case not being discussed.
Gass invented his Saw Stop technology & took it to various manufacturers to be licensed – and was turned down.
This is Gass getting even with them for turning him down.
During the course of this case, Gass testified ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF – and in addition, Osorio’s lawyer, Sullivan, has some connection with Gass &/or SawStop.
That’s the rumor I’m hearing – anyone confirm or deny?
-Kevin in Indy
A few years back I permanently removed the side of my index finger with a portable table saw. My finger remains a little numb and a bit pointier than the others. Now, mind you, it was completely my fault. And I really had it coming for what I was doing… but seeing as there was clearly no flesh detection going on, do you think it’s too late to jump on this lawsuit bandwagon? I have a few bills to…… Wow! Dude just needs to own up to the mangled fingers.
So in reading the comments I also agree with the majority being that it is ridiculous that a lawsuit can be won based on the improper “use†of a tool. (Making the assumption that he improperly used the tool as in the fact that he cut a finger off ïŠ )
However, After reading the inc article the PWW sent out. http://www.inc.com/magazine/20.....-gass.html I also find it very troubling that all the saw manufactures also had the lawyers running the show in taking the stance of “If we don’t implement and license this technology, what will it cost us†instead of embracing something that could save woodworkers from injuries (Regardless or whether it is through ignorance or accident). This all happened before you could buy a sawstop saw and had Stephen Gass not believed in the potential so much, this technology would have never seen the light of day. The major bards were not thinking of the woodworker or evolving the tool. Perhaps if they would have, there could have been less injuries sooner than it took to get sawstop manufacturing their saws. This is not to say that it is their “fault†that there were injuries, but it was short sighted on the potential to advance the table saw as a safer tool (while also selling a saw at a premium to cover the cost and give the consumer a choice to have more safety )
I also would think that not every saw could/should have this technology. It would certainly drive the cost up. However, it would be nice to be able to have options of a safer saw from more than one brand.
Sawstop is still around so it is evident that there is a market for a more expensive saw with this technology. I own a sawstop and I’m glad that this technology didn’t disappear because the major saw brands were not willing to invest in something that had potential for increased safety. Ultimately though, the consumer’s wants/needs will drive this technologies viability in the market.
I can say one thing for sure is that no matter how safe, experience or knowledgeable you think you are, we can only benefit from increased safety in our tools. If for any reason else, this technology is crucial in a learning environment (new woodworker, classroom etc…) and I’m very glad that sawstop persisted when the major manufactures passed on the opportunity.
Part of my decision to buy sawstop was the extra insurance in a sawstop to teach my children when they are old enough. But that is all it is…â€extra†insurance. It will never be a replacement for teaching them how to use any tool properly and safely.
Having said all that, now that sawstop is an option, we all now have a choice so we can individually weigh the cost vs. benefit. Making any manufacture liable seems ridiculous and the market will dictate whether this technology is a viable safety add-on in the future. I hope sawstop uses it as a competitive advantage and can get to the point where the cost is so negligible that that the manufactures that passed on the licensing will be at a competitive disadvantage and will need to find an even better solution in the future. (Maybe one that doesn’t destroy a $100 cartridge and your blade)
Through competition and creativity we can perhaps continue to improve upon a tool that can be very dangerous.
I can’t WAIT to see the obligatory warning labels that are going to come out of this mess.
WARNING: Spinning blades are dangerous!
Sort of like the hair dryer warning:
- Do not use while sleeping
Or the iron:
- Do not use on clothes you (or anyone else) are currently wearing
Sigh, I better start saving now for my upgrade. The way this is going to put the prices up, maybe I can afford one by the time I’m 60.
I hope Ryobi appeals and wins!
Or the curling iron: “For external use only.” :O
The Sawstop people should keep an eye out for this guy. He might try to take some of his settlement and purchase one of their saws. They should advise any retailers by issuing a “no sell list” that would include this guy’s mug shot.
I think this guy is who Forrest Gump was talking about when he said “stuipid is as stupid does.”
Maybe this guy just really wanted a Sawstop. I would not have gone this far, but damn that is dedication.
This is a true life “Boston Legal case”. The most retarded far fetched thing gets taken on by big money lawyers and the morons win. This is so stupid. I so agree with Marc.
i think ”i will sue the company because they didnt provide me with protective gear, proper training, and at the last resort, someone to supervise me and keep me from messing up… and while at it, i may even sue my mom for not giving me enough brains….”
When i started woodworking, i had read books, articles, and watched videos specially david marks and mark… now is this proper education… no but you would be surprised how well i did with just a peeeeeeeweeeee bit of common sense…
You don’t need a flesh detector on every saw, but it would be nice if they were sold with a dumbass detector, that would keep the saw from starting up, when ever someone like this got within 10 ft of a table saw!
LOL awsome!
The guy probably wasnt paying attention. A tablesaw is a simple machine if you are paying attention and your not a dumb ass then your hand should never even get near the blade.
I have a friend who has been woodworking for 50 years, just lost a finger last year.
It’s all well and good to call someone a dumbass for getting nipped, but that’s not always the case, s*** does happen sometimes. Not every person who gets nipped is an idiot or careless.
I agree with the majority that you have to take personal responsibility for safety.
I’m not sure I agree that adding the technology to all table saws makes them all as expensive as a Sawstop:
- Sawstop has a monopoly on the market and is able to charge a premium for the technology
- History has show that once a product moves from niche to mass market the price goes down. Certainly it won’t go to zero, but it’s not going to make your $89 HD saw cost $1800.
I gotta say I agree with EVERYBODY! George Bernard Shaw said: “Common sense is instinct… Enough of it is genious”.
Anyways, maybe I missed something, but when is this whole Woodworker’s Safety Awareness Week?!?!?!?!?!
May, I believe.
This reminds me of a case where a plaintiff was awarded a settlement for being injured on a riding lawn mower when it started rolling backwards. The jury of that case decided the manufacturer should have invented a device that stops the blade when the mower starts to roll back. The point being that such an invention has never been made.
This case is similar. SawStop is the first of it’s kind on the market. The inventor thought of the idea in 1999, according to the sawstop.com, and the company not formed until 2005. This case is dated 1996, nearly a decade earlier.
If jury decisions are going to be this unreasonable, I’m going to make a case that my cars should have been running on Mr. Fusion by now and that my children’s college funds have been taken from me, thus crippling their earning ability. I’m sure this will be overturned in a higher ruling, but until then this jury should start figuring out a not-guilty-by-reasons-of-insanity plea.
There are a few inaccuracies in some of the comments. Building sawstop technology into a tablesaw adds about $300-$500 to the cost of the saw not $1000. The cartridges are about $70 and they do not destroy the blade as long as you are using a good quality blade. Knock the aluminum brake pad off the blade have it resharpened and keep using it. And for those professional woodworkers it wont be long before your insurance company says get a sawstop or get a different insurance company. I have seen the insurance company part happen already. So like it or not the sawstop technology is coming to all professional shops. Those of us who pursue woodworking as a hobby have a bit longer before we will be forced into it, probably by the insurance companies as well.
Perhaps they don’t always destroy the blade but I have seen the saw unload (misfire) into a dadonator dado blade and it broke off 3 carbides on both the inside and outside blades. Infinity tool told me the blades were not repairable. Maybe Forrest or someone can recertify their blades but in my case the dado set was toast.
I hadn’t thought about dado blades. All (or most?) dado blades are smaller in diameter, so does the SawStop mechanism have a minimum diameter it can handle?? And does the thickness of the dado affect it??
There is a separate Dado cartridge you need to purchase. In my case, the misfire was because the clearance I had to the dado was too close. They give you a gauge and I did adjust it, but when sawstop got the fired cartridge from me and pulled the data from it is said that it was too close. My lessoned learned is that I always run the saw in bypass for a couple cuts just to be safe. (or not safe as it may be ) :)
I have to say, I disagree with Marc on this one… He said, “this is up there with the McDonalds hot coffee incident,” and I think that this is way WORSE than the hot coffee thing.
There’s an industry standard max temperature for serving coffee, to avoid serious burns. McDonalds decided to sell coffee that was hotter than the industry standard, presumable because people complained that when they got back to their office their coffee was cold. I don’t think McDonalds should have lost the case, but they did knowingly violate industry safety standards to better meet their customers needs.
BUT, Ryobi did NOT violate any industry standard safety practices! Their saw was perfectly within industry standards, and the injury was not caused by any defect in the saw!! There’s no way that Ryobi should have lost!!!
The problem is, that even if Ryobi ends up not paying a cent to this bozo, the damage is done. All tool manufacturers are going to be running scared.
I’m a Sawstop owner, but this sort of thing infuriates me!
I guess I’d better spend all my savings on power tools while they are still available.
(BTW – there are prototype SawStop bandsaws and chopsaws.)
All table saws now are required to have a riving knife — which is a good thing, since they don’t drive up the cost a lot, unlike the flesh detector.
If this person was paying attention and using the proper techniques this incident would not have occurred. After all, I strongly doubt the blade jumped out and cut him.
Besides, if you put the SawStop on every new saw, someone’s going to eventually sue because the saw stop ruined their blade and now they lost wages or missed a deadline because their saw needs repair.
Also remember a sawstop will eventually fail. If it is electrical or mechanical it will eventually fail, and the sawstop is both. Mr. Gass’s testimony may well come back to bite him. As juries award larger settlements at some point sawstop’s injury gaurentee probably wont be high enough. You’re disclaimer’s ability to protect you from liability is inversely proportional to the ability of the council suing you.
Here’s what I’m telling my non-wood-working friends:
“This is like someone buying a scooter because he can’t afford a car, losing control while driving on a deserted road, and suing Vespa because the scooter didn’t have seatbelts, front and side airbags, crumple zones and a roll-bar.”
I have the feeling that power tools purchases are going to start requiring a waiver or letter of indemnification. Then, after more self-inflicted injuries, we will have a grace period on tool purchases allowing for a background check.
I sustained a table saw injury a few months ago by breaking my two biggest woodworking rules; A.) Don’t work when you’re tired, B:) Don’t work when you’re in a hurry.
With more than 20 yrs shop experience “my number came up”. The injury wasn’t all that bad, but it was not healing properly and I opted for surgery to remove about 1/2″ off the tip of my thumb. Considering that the whole ordeal was my own carelessness and completely avoidable, it never even entered my mind to sue WMI due to the injury received (and not caused by) my PM 64A saw.
I also work for a consumer products company in design engineering full time and am all too familiar with the infinite number of ways that consumers can devise to hurt themselves with a product, regardless what “reasonable” measures are taken to prevent injuries. People hurt themselves with products in ways that you cannot even conceive in your wildest dreams during the design of the product. My company has even been successfully sued for injuries from competitors products because of our strong brand name!
It is nearly impossible to overcome the perception that most jurors maintain that a “deep pocket” company should pay for an injury caused by the product no matter how safe. After all, just like the doctor who previously commented about malpractice insurance rates, the company will have insurance so it’s not like they’ll really be out anything!
The size of the user manuals that generally go directly into the trash increases with each loss in the courts. Endless testing, product certifications, focus studies, on and on…..all of which ends up in the price of the product. Off shore manufacturers continue to gain advantage by avoiding injury awards as they’re often hidden from the consumer’s view disguised as a US name brand or some store brand name.
As has been previously mentioned, societies tendency to not accept responsibility for their own actions, and to seek damages for products that are otherwise often considered to be safe in the hands of a “reasonable” consumer are really to everyone’s long-term expense.
There is no doubt that there are unsafe products on the market and a place for injury awards as a way to deter bad products. Here is where the legal system seems to be failing us all.
Just MHO…
In light of this case, my concern is the government getting involved in designing new safety features for table saws. Here’s an example of what OSHA may do if, for example, they designed safety “features†for a cowboy. Now picture how a table saw may look if they were involved. Click on link below. Just a little humor. I’m not belittling safety by any means.
http://www.contractortalk.com/.....nts-32593/
I think you should pass an IQ test to buy a cheap saw, it would have been a no sale for him. I just purchased a sawstop and love it. I am more careful with it than my last one because I don’t want to trip it and ruin the blade. I don’t trust it enough to ram my finger in the moving blade to see if it really works!
OK. This is a topic I feel strongly about. I was standing right in front of her when my wife got her fingers in the table saw. The worst part about it was that it was MY fault. I removed the blade guard/splitter (they were attached together) because it was broken which made it inconvenient to use. I should have just replaced it. It got her fingers because she was pushing 8/4 purpleheart through and it was just a contractor table saw. The boards came in contact behind the blade and the one opposite the fence kicked back (she was using a push stick on the fence side). It kicked out from under her hand and her hand went into the blade. It’s something that happened in the blink of an eye. Accidents happen. Should all saws be required to have SawStop technology? No. It should be more widely available though. I wanted a SawStop long before this happened. Now I personally will not use another table saw until I can afford one.
So here’s where I stand. This guy is an idiot. I say that because of the lawsuit and NOT because he cut his hand on the table saw. He made a mistake and blamed it on someone else which is wrong. For all of you that say you have to be an idiot to touch that spinning blade, I’d be curious to see what you would have to say if that person was someone you actually cared about rather than a story you read about online. If you have to be such an idiot, why are there over 60,000 table saw injuries per year? It happens…even to professionals.
For anyone who complains about the cost of replacing the blade and the part that stops the blade on a SawStop, my wife has had 3 surgeries so far. She will most likely have at least a few more. SO FAR the surgeries and doctor visits have totaled well over $30,000. A few hundred is a small price to pay.
Blake
Blake, I agree, accidents happen. And if this guy had an accident, he is an idiot for suing, not for getting cut in an accident.
What if those 60,000 people with injuries sued!! Nobody could afford woodworking as a hobby unless it were the Roy Underhill’s.
The part I don’t understand from many of the posts to this blog is the “If this person was paying attention and using the proper techniques this incident would not have occurred.” remarks. They imply that somehow we are better than him and it will never happen to us in the many years we will dedicate to woodworking. I did a little research and the amount of table saw injuries per year in the US is between 31,000 to 60,000 and about 10% of those end up in amputation. In one of the recent WTO Marc mention about 35,000 accidents per year if I remember correctly. If any of us think we are better than these over 30,000 people and we will never make a mistake then we are in negation.
What we should be advocating is for this security concept to become more common, be it using saw stop technology or any other technology and hopefully in the short future it will become really afordable for the common woodworker. Heck why stop at the table saw, I’m scared as hell of the sometimes open spinning bit at router table and don’t get me started with the band saw.
Out of all of these up to 60 000 injuries per year I wonder how many of them happened when the proper guards and practices WERE being used. I’ll bet the number is pretty small.
I don’t think I am better than this guy, just probably safer in how I use my tools. I have had one table saw injury and it was ENTIRELY my fault. I’m not going to go suing Delta because I CHOSE to take off the stock splitter/guard combo, CHOSE to not replaced it, then took a kicked back piece of plywood to the chest. I counted my lucky stars that it wasn’t worse, and considered it a wake-up call that these accidents don’t just happen to THOSE PEOPLE and to be much safer in my practices.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the Sawstop, I think it’s a great invention. That said, I’m not in a rush to go buy one. I know how to use a table saw to minimize the risk of injury (as I’m sure everyone here does too) and don’t think that the extra cost is justified for me.
The internet and other media sources are littered with stories of how people have injured and maimed themselves with power tools. There is simply no excuse for people not knowing that these things are dangerous and using them irresponsibly. This “it can’t happen to me” attitude that a lot of people have has to stop. It’s a shame that it DOES have to happen before people get the message (like it did with me).
Wow this is a lot of comments lol.
This smells like Saw Stop is behind this.
Wow, I think this is a new record. I don’t have time to read all the comments to see if this has already been covered, but, this article almost makes me want to sacrifice a finger.
SawStop has numerous patents and to the best of my knowledge they haven’t licensed their technology to anyone else. How can you loose a suit based on not applying technology that you cannot legally use? Did Ryobi’s lawyers sleep through the case?
Hopefully Ryobi will win in the appeal process and be able to recoup all there attorney fees.
One of my philosophies in life is “Fu@k them if they can’t take a joke.” Which means, when all else fails common sense dictates your actions. In high school I suffered two painful kickbacks. I did not understand what I did wrong, considering I had run alot of wood through the school table saw and never had any problem. There was no safety features on the saw however. One kickback came directly into my abdomen, another when flying over my head and across the shop. After that, I didn’t use a table saw for a long time.
Finally a few years ago, (probably 10 years since I used a table saw) I had to rip a long board. I regained my confidence after a successful cut. I have since then looked up on how to safely use a table saw and powertools properly. I don’t put my hands near the blade, I use a push stick and stand outside of the miter slots when I can. The shop is no place for complacency.
It’s OK because Obama’s new health care plan will fix everyone’s fingers for cheep. In fact you might not even have to pay for it because your in a income class that lets others pay for you. Sawstop will no longer be needed because it will be so cheep for you to get your fingers replaced.. GO figure!!! What an Idiot this guy makes all of us Americans and our system look like!
This is the Anything for a Buck scumbag trial lawyers out getting rich off our backs again. I bought my saw and read all the required safety information in the front of the manual. Somewhere in there it tells me everything I need to know to stay as safe as possible, but it doesn’t say I will always be 100% safe.
If the government wanted to stimulate the economy and save health care costs, they would buy all of us new SawStops to use. Two winning deals for the price of one. We could call it Cash for Cabinetmakers! (or Carpenters, or Cutting or …)
I just wrote to the Boston Globe writer of this story. I urge you all to send her a very POLITE message asking the Globe to perhaps do an editorial with our point of view. It couldn’t hurt.
Her email address is: abelson@globe.com
Her name is Jenn Abelson
I believe a bit of background is missing (Boston Globe did not appear to do any more than a basic report). Ryobi specifically was in final negotiations to license the SawStop stuff and pulled out at the 11th hour almost killing the company. Essentially, they were aware of a better way and then specifically decided NOT to pursue it – that makes them a lot more liable than just wandering along following the law as far as I can figure. Saws made in the intervening years between that and SawStop shipping a saw of their own are iffy only because of the utter lack of effort the manufacturers made to improve anything at all. One more item – not sure if Ryobi was part of this – but the major US manufacturers took a pass because their lawyers were worried that they would get sued – if just one of them implemented it. However, if they all stood together and all agreed that the technology was not feasible, did not work, or was too expensive – obviously they were right. I guess that idea was correct – but SawStop making a saw was probably considered really outside odds. Note that today, that tech is covered by a maze of patents – it would probably be hard for WMH to implement anything before the patents expire. It would be interesting to see if SawStop is now more at risk because they limit the spread of safety tech now that it has proven effective?
As to the macho guys who can avoid being injured by being smart, do realize that there is absolutely no way to flinch back from contact with a tablesaw blade – if something goes wrong, it is done. I have 1/3 of my left thumb missing – yes, I was an idiot (at least I feel that way) but I sure would not tempt Murphy by pointing it out to me if I was you lot :-) (now I regret typing that worrying that somebody will get injured but not enough to delete it).
Mark S. – I disagree with you on this one, but only because of the history of the manufactures doing everything they could to squash any safety improvement. Now… since engineers never actually avoid safety tech any more than woodworkers… anybody want to join a class action lawsuit against lawyers?
I think the worst part is that it’s come to this. I’m not a fan of these sorts of lawsuits, but the collusion of the saw makers that led to this situation makes me mad.
I don’t think all saws should be forced to have this technology, but it would be nice if someone other than SawStop made them too. I’d have happily paid an extra $200 for a version of my saw with a brake on it.
Well said, Jen. If in fact there was a group effort by the manufacturers to keep a safety product off the market, I couldn’t agree more.
Remember, they probably assumed if they didn’t buy it, it was a no go, so nobody, whether they wanted it or not, would have this technology available to them if they had their way.
To stop a safety measure from coming to market is just not right, no matter how you slice it.
If the facts stated in the article are correct, this case will be overturned in a heartbeat. My wife is a mouth-piece :) and you cannot sue over licensed technology if the sue-ee does not possess the licensed technology not to mention inherent risk and the time factor of the purchase. I can’t sue Ford if I get in an accident in my Model T because ol’ Henry didn’t have the foresight to install airbags (or seatbelts for that matter).
It’s a given that this guy is an idiot for suing them, albeit probably a wealthier idiot than any of us will be in the near future.
The scenario I have read is that the licensed technology was offered to the company, and they decided not to buy it. My guess is they were pressured by the other manufacturers to get on board and show a solid front to put this guy out of business, but it’s only a guess. We know nothing really.
At what price was the licensing offered, with what conditions etc.,who knows?
Presumably the jurors know, because this info might have some bearing on their decision, and I’m sure it would have been brought out at the trial.
I think maybe we’re jumping all over the jurors without knowing why they voted the way they did.
For all we know, they might have produced an internal memo saying ‘screw woodworkers, who cares about them’. If I was a juror, that just might p*** me off enough to make them pay.
We’re really playing cards with half a deck here, not knowing what exactly was brought out in the trial.
Now what if the accident was actually caused by a twist in the board causing kickback and him dropping his hand into the blade-is it the lumberyards fault, or the milling company, or the trucking company who delivered the wood to the store for him to buy, or the checkout clerk for not bringing it to his attention?? Also, when I build furniture am I going to have to be worried about being sued because somebody hurt their toe when they kicked it in the middle of the night? Get real, I think this guy should BY LAW be required to wear a neon sign on top of his hardhat saying “I be dumb, back away quickly”
Nate
Webb, state your source for your comment “I disagree with you on this one, but only because of the history of the manufactures doing everything they could to squash any safety improvement.” Industry study? Consumer report? Where? Sorry, but your own perception is not fact. I suggest you not be so reckless with such remarks.
Manufacturers make products to fit user’s wants and desires, not the other way around. (Look at General Motors for an example of the latter.) When have you ever heard a woodworker say “I really wish there were a bunch of extra safety features on this saw to get in the way and bind up when I’m cutting?” I took the splitter off my Delta long ago. Why? If you want to tilt the blade and make a cut it’s in the way. If you want to use a miter sled it’s in the way. If you’re cutting small narrow pieces its in the way. I realized long ago that if I run my hand through the blade it’s my own fault. It’s a CHOICE I made. The same choice this jackass made when he ran his hand through his $99 Home Depot saw. That Ryobi saw did come with a blade guard. I would know, I used to sell tools there in college and sold a number of those cheap saws.
I do have a fact that others here have not brought up. Steve Gass, the inventor of Sawstop, is a patent lawyer. A couple years ago he tried getting legislation passed that would make it mandatory for all manufacturers to buy and institute his product.
http://www.protoolreviews.com/.....op-lawsuit
This guy may come across as benevolent but he’s in it for the money like everyone else. He knows the patent laws and knows if he railroads manufactures into buying his product he can stick it to them for whatever price he wants, a price which will obviously be handed on to us.
There is an article that covers a lot of this. Before starting Sawstop he was making 6 figures as a lawyer. He even admits that “making everyone have Sawstop technology has become a crusade.” If he’s really on a benevolent mission he should be making the technology affordable, not demanding an 8% royalty on every product, 8% that will be handed on to us.
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20.....-gass.html
J.R., It seems that your last two paragraph are also based on perception. I read the whole article “He took on the whole power tool industry” twice as well as the Pro Tool Review article.
In 2003 he did file a petition with the CPSC “to make SawStop-LIKE technology standard on all table saws.” Not necessarily HIS technology. And he did also say that “what began as an interesting physics problem in his workshop has become something of a crusade.” But nowhere is he quoted as saying “making everyone have Sawstop technology has become a crusade.â€
Now that they know this technology can be made, there is nothing stopping other manufacturers from developing their OWN “flesh-detecting technology” and skirting the whole 8% royalty issue all together. Frankly, why wouldn’t they want to, this technology has been around for TEN years now, they can’t say they didn’t know. Besides, it’s all marketing, you could say to people something like : “You’ve all heard of Sawstop, now look at what I have and why it’s even better”. Sound like good business to me.
As for the cost issues, of course it’s expensive, all new technology’s are. Look at plasma TV’s or CD/DVD players when they first came out. Once more manufacturers jump on the bandwagon the price will come down.
Like I said in my previous post, I don’t own a Sawstop and don’t intend to get one. That said, I’m all for it for the people who want it. And I do also think that Mr. Gass has a right to recoup his R&D and manufacturing costs through a higher priced saw and licensing fees for manufacturers who want his technology.
To be fair, you’re setting up a straw man and knocking it down.
Your statement ‘I really wish there were a bunch of extra safety features on this saw to get in the way and bind up when I’m cutting?’ begs the answer you want.
If you rephrased it to I really wish there were more safety features on saws so that we wouldn’t have 60,000 accidents a year and the untold medical costs that this brings’, the answers would be 180 degrees the other way.
In fact, as far as the saw stop goes, you don’t even know it’s there until it’s used, so what you said wouldn’t even apply to this discussion.
I’ve been woodworking for may years and my only question is “Why were his fingers that close to the blade to cause him the Injury?”
We all have done some unsafe things when it comes to woodworking,but Common Sense safety measures will prevent most accidents. Think before you turn on your power equipment.
This is hilarious. Only in America!
Thanks for the laughs, and for the safety warning!
PS: Love your website and your vids
Wow – well if these lawsuits keep on winning. We only can buy machines 1000 $ and up. Than we only will have pro’s doing woodworking.
No everybody – don t laugh with this – i m sure the guy is not happy what happened – and blames the machine / manufacturer. But do keep in mind its the lawyers that look for any reason to get the money from the company – they are not looking for the real cause. So i think there is some truth in it.
Where do I start? Today’s society is all about finger pointing. “It’s not my fault, its theirs.” seems to be the motto. Whatever happened to individual responsibility? The inherent risk accepted by Carlos Osorio should wave the manufacturer of any liability since HE CHOSE to use the saw the way he did (not to mention the numerous warnings about table saw use and the safety features). This court ruling is part of the reason our society is slowly withering away. The public should demand individual responsibility and accountability like our grandparent’s era. We will all be better for it. Oh, and for that finger pointing thing…’Before you go pointing your finger at anyone else look at the three pointing back at you’. (Point your finger then turn your palm up while pointing your finger…now look at your hand). Semper Fi, stay safe and keep creating fabulous wood projects
LOL! ‘finger pointing’ is just too funny in this discussion!
There are a lot of valid points presented in the comments. I would think that anyone who operates a table saw or any other power tool assumes some risk. It doesn’t take a massive amount of gray matter to realize that the improper operation of any tool holds sever consequences. When I took shop class in high school, we had to take a safety test and score 100%, before we were allowed to touch a tool. The root cause of most accidents is operator error.
I’m suing Toyota tomorrow for the cut I got over the weekend working on my minivan. That spinning pulley that shaved off my knuckle should have had flesh detecting technology and immediately stopped before causing me injury.
And does anyone have a corporate address for Gillette???…closest, knick free shave ever my a$$.
Two thumbs up!
Can we switch the argument from the saw, to the use of airbags in cars, or seatbelts for that matter. Someone did the R&D for that, it does add cost, it doesn’t prevent all accidents, you still have to use your head when using an inherently dangerous product. But now its federally mandated, and it does lessen the harm done in some accidents. I know some Luddites here long for the “good ole days” before seatbelts, and complain that “if all drivers just used common sense, we wouldn’t need all those safety measures”.Please excuse me if someone wrote this already, I read through 30 or 40 comments, and then ran out of patience.
This is great!!! I love this country, where else can you go and be completely irresponsible and get paid for it. This guy and his lawyer are a complete joke and a disgrace to our beloved past time. Time to stock up on the bubble wrap. Hey Marc, are going to carry any in your store? HA!
Amazing enough. There are those people out there……and then there is me….I bought a Ridgid planer and when i put the first board through it….it shot the piece of wood at me and a screw………. i open it up and the knives were loose and the screws were all stripped…….. was like a cannon going off, shrapnel everyone. including some wood in my abdomen, and a huge bruise from the wood hitting me….. So i calmly removed the wood, and then packed it up, went back and got a new one……..And now i love it….. one of my favorite tools in the shop.
ShopMonger
As a resident of Massachusetts, I’d like to apologize for the stupidity of the jury, unfortunately findings like this are the rule not the exception.
I agree with all of the comments so far about how ridiculous this judgment was so I have nothing to add to that aspect. But I thought I might also point to an alternative to the Saw Stop. I don’t think it is commercially available yet, but it looks like a decent alternative in that it wouldn’t be as expensive, could be adapted to any table saw, and would not destroy the saw when it activates. It’s called the Whirlwind Braking System.
http://www.whirlwindtool.com/
Here’s a YouTube video demonstration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHajjMUrSOg
I have no involvement or connection to this system. I just remembered seeing it discussed on another forum.
Marc
I know everyone always jumps on the McDonalds coffee lawsuit band wagon. But that case isnt a clear as you would think. Read this sometime http://www.jtexconsumerlaw.com/V11N1/Coffee.pdf
Now as for this lawsuit about the table saw – I think it is ridiculous and I hope Ryobi wins in appeal This could be very bad for us as consumers and woodworkers and for the tool companies.
I just wanted to clear the air on the coffee suit – since most people just know what the comedians have to say about it
Robert
Does anyone remember Norm saying: Be sure to read, understand and follow ALL the safety rules that come with your powertool? I’ve cut myself on 2 occasions, I’m not trying to get any money from the manufacturer, I know I was the cause, not my TS or Bandsaw! My advice: don’t work tired just to get a job done for a client, explain them you want to keep all your fingers!
Marc
Whew, great reading but I can’t finish all 87 comments (as of this posting).
But I’ve go to stop reading now and go rip some boards on my Steel City table saw, joint them on my Grizzly jointer, and plane them on my Ryobi thickness planer, all before I sand them with my Dewalt ROS, and finish them with my Rockler HVLP spray gun.
Hopefully, I won’t damage any body parts by accident, personal neglect, or faulty designed equipment. Hmmm, lots of tool manufacturers there!!
Think I’ll say a little prayer…
Wow what a list of responses I tries reading all but I guess I’ll have to get back to it later. I think I agree with all of you.
So after I got through reading these I decided I agree with about 99%. Chief Luddite
O.K. Saw stop has the patent. In order for the”flesh detection” technology to be used on other saws, Sawstop either has to forfeit rights to it or someone develops a parallel technology.
My business neighbor, (I swear to you!) just lost the tip of middle finger, and part of the first finger with a dado blade about two weeks ago. He’s not suing anyone because it was his mistake.
It should get overturned
If you are a wood worker, or anyone who uses power tools for that matter, you should want the safest product out there available to all, not just a select few who can afford it. I would be willing to pay a few extra dollars to save my digits as well as anyone elses. The cost wouldn’t be that great to include this technology given the economies of scale with a product like this. Marc you are selling out to big business, now that you have a few sponsors, I guess you have to take this stance for fear of losing your sponsorships. This is a great precendent for all woodworkers, what wood worker wouldn’t be glad about this outcome.
Hey, Rick, I don’t agree 100% with Marc, but to call him a sellout is just wrong.
There is NOBODY anywhere else on the web that will tell you another way to accomplish something without buying the big tools that sponsor him. That’s why I go here first for information.
You owe him an apology for this comment.
Thanks for defending me Herb.
Rick. Are you just trolling here or what?
“Now that you have a few sponsors….” By “now”, you must be referring the last few years? Sponsorship at TheWoodWhisperer.com is nothing new. Fortunately for me, I have nearly 4 years of videos, blog posts, and articles that show the type of person that I am and the level of integrity that I bring to my show and my business. So I certainly don’t feel the need to defend myself in that area. But it does show that you are talking out of the wrong orifice.
And furthermore, for argument’s sake, lets look at my original comments in the post. I am still trying to figure out how you could draw this whole sponsorship conclusion from what I wrote. Primarily, I was pointing a finger at the irresponsibility of someone blaming a company for their mistake. I then said that adding this technology to a cheap Ryobi saw would make it more expensive. I was simply pointing out the irony of that situation. I never said anything negative about the technology itself and in fact, I would love to see this technology as an option in all saws in the future. So, even if I was just a shill for my sponsors, how exactly would you draw THAT conclusion from this blog post?? Quite frankly, I don’t appreciate these false accusations and I challenge you to substantiate your claim.
And finally, the thing that puzzles me the most is that you are a Guild member. Why in the world would you pay for a membership to a site that you feel is run by someone who is just a “sell-out”???
I get the impression in reading all of the comments (125 at this point), that this law suite aside, we are talking about the need for an “absolute†solution to tablesaw safety versus incrementally reducing the probability of having an accident, but well short of zero probability. SawStop is about our only reference point at this time. I think it’s a great safety feature, and I would like to see similar technology in all tablesaws. However, my question is, do we insist on “absolute†solutions only, or will we continue to show our support to tablesaw manufacturers by continuing to purchase their tablesaws with the currently available safety solutions? If we find the lack of an “absolute†solutions acceptable, then do we push to have companies implement as many safety features as possible as long as the features will reduce the probability of having an accident? Someone commented that riving knives are now mandatory. It’s a start. If we add all of the other add on safety “solutions†that are offered for tablesaw use, would that be acceptable over an “absolute†solution?
My comments do not address the whole picture of course. Safety is a multipart system. Typically human / machine interface. The machine has its part in “preventing†injury (as designed, built and documented), and the human has their part in preventing injury. A Chef can teach a culinary student how to safely use a knife, but the Chef cannot guarantee the student will not cut themselves once the “training wheels†are off. In the case of a tablesaw, the owner / user, needs to make the decision to purchase (as needed) and implement the safety features for their tablesaw. Another question: How many tablesaw users read the entire user manual for their saws before using them? How many SawStop owners read their entire user manual before using their SawStop tablesaw? I know this is no guarantee against accidents but it our baseline before starting to use our saws. There are factors that can’t be addressed by head knowledge. Will a newbie woodworker be more or less safe than an experience woodworker? Human frailties, which has already been mentioned, such as being tired, not focused, in a rush, etc., etc..
I am curious about one thing in regard to the SawStop solution. I don’t claim to have seen everything or read everything on SawStop. I saw Steve Gass on Time Warp demonstrating his tablesaw with initially hot dogs, then he placed his finger on the table top with the end of his finger pointing into the saw. He very slowly moved his finger until it just touched the saw blade while the saw was spinning. The blade of course dropped into the aluminum block and stopped “immediatelyâ€. He said he only felt a tingling in the end of his finger (or words to that effect) but no blood. By the way, does anyone know if the saw was spinning at maximum, minimum RPM or somewhere in between?
My question is: how many tablesaw accidents happen when someone slowing and deliberately touches their finger to the edge of a spinning saw blade? Maybe I’m not informed enough here, but don’t most tablesaw accidents involving fingers and hands happen much more forcefully? Has the SawStop research facility done testing with pieces of meat that closely represent a human hand (including bones) where they would drop the meat at various heights above the spinning saw blade to see how deeply the saw cut before stopping? Let’s look at it another way. What type of injury would occur if we unplugged our tablesaw and dropped our hand on top of a non-spinning saw? Any injury?
I understand that a percentage of tablesaw injuries occur due to kick back where a board will hit some part of the human anatomy at typically high velocity. The SawStop is a “human flesh detecting†device isn’t it? Then how would that prevent kick back? I’m no expert so please let me know what is in error here. If that is correct then SawStop is not an “absolute†solution to injury prevention.
My impression of the manufacturing industry (having worked many years for two large companies), is that for many decades past, safety implementation has been resisted because of increased production costs and in some cases a decrease in performance as a competitive advantage. The decision has been mainly one of do I pass the costs to the customer and risk lower sales (or loss to competitors), or do I reduce profit to the company and not pass the extra cost along? Do you think it’s possible that the majority of the companies will decide to preserve profits and raise product costs? These comments are over simplified of course, but if a more “absolute†solution becomes required, then tablesaw prices will rise accordingly. Hopefully, as already posted, the cost increase will be minimal enough to allow people to continue to get into woodworking or upgrading or replacing current equipment.
Dean, I loved you point about human/machine parts in injury prevention, as well as your comparison of a chef with a knife. Very well said. About your Sawstop questions, I have seen the demonstrations in person on more than one occasion and I can say that the demos I saw had the tablesaw running at full RPM. Also, in one of the demos I watched they were using chicken drumsticks for the test and passed it through the blade (on a board) as quickly he could. The result was the same as with slower demos. The brake engaged and the blade dropped below the table just as quickly. The cut on the leg was a little deeper, but still easily manageable with a bandaid. Just for the record I have no affiliation with Sawstop in any way (I don’t even own one), I’m just passing along what I’ve seen.
Ahh, so if I buy a cheap car, have an accident and get hurt, I can sue the manufacturer because it did not have the safety features of a Mercedes? Now that makes sense. What a can of worms that opens up:)
Sawstop created this lawsuit. if you recall, Steve Gauss (sp), the creator of the SS filed these lawsuits years ago to try to force the major companies to use his product, the main reason I would NEVER consider buying a sawstop.
Phil
If the saw did not break to cause this injury and it was how he was using it, then the company who made it should be held responsible. Were all all the guards in place. If they wern’t then the operator did not follow the instructions in the manual, the manufacturer can’t be responsible if he didn’t do things properly.
I hear a lot of comments about having a failsafe on there table saws being a bad thing,
I don’t understand that and a table saw being one of the most dangerous tools in our shop.
I know for someone own self they feel confident that an accident won’t happen to them
My self included (30years in knock on wood).
I would like some day to have my young son go into this woodworking hobby but I am hesitant,
But here is question I bring up!
Would you have your young daughter or son operate the saw knowing that there is potential for a catastrophic injury?
And how would you feel if it happens ?.
Ken F,
You asked, “Would you have your young daughter or son operate the saw knowing that there is potential for a catastrophic injury? And how would you feel if it happens ?”
This guy could have bought a $3000 sawstop, but he decided to buy a $90 saw instead, for 1/33rd of the cost. Do you drive a car? Do your children ever drive with you? Does your car have frontal collision and lane departure warning systems?
If you decided to buy a car without these features, and you were in an accident, would you sue the automobile manufacturer because you decided to buy a car that didn’t have this technology?
This guy bought a motor-scooter, and is suing the manufacturer because it didn’t have these advanced, high end, high tech safety features. I don’t think motor scooters should be prohibited, and I don’t think a Vespa should be required to have all the safety features of a high-end Volvo.
I own a Sawstop. I was willing to pay the extra for the safety. I could have bought a good quality jointer, planer, bandsaw, router, router table, and dust collection system for what I spent on the sawstop. (Now that I write that, I’m wondering if I made the right decision…)
I respect that some people may prefer to have a fully equipped shop rather than have one very safe machine.
What this saw should have had is idiot detection technology that would prevent stupid people from operating any type of machinery. People like this make the cost of every item go up. I bet the price of all saws goes up just so that companies can pay more for there liability insurance premiums that are goingto go up.
I think what this boils down to is (and no, I didn’t take the time to read all 137 posts….yet), somebody gets careless and/or negligent and goes to the hospital. Some lawyer has his lowlifes (is that redundant?)scanning newspapers for injuries and then contacts anyone who’s been hurt requiring surgury and offers to sue the company for them. What ticks me off the most about this(and there’s plenty about it that does), is the fact that he WON this stupid case.
This is a frackin’ great discussion. I can’t believe Ryobi really lost this case. Is it final? Will they or can they appeal?
145 posts. Is that a record Mark?
i don’t know where to begin! the saw didn’t attack this guy, he must have been doing something stupid. no push stick, warped wood, even free handing a cut. i have been around a few jobsites in my day, and the first thing on most contractors mind is MONEY, not safety. time is money, and doing a job safely takes a little extra time. i highly doubt this guy was leading a crusade to have “flesh detection technology” on his saw before this “accident” and really, what’s next? chisels that turn to putty on contact, nail guns that detect body heat, or how about we all get a power receptical implanted. that way we can plug the circular saw into our butt’s, then plug ourselves into the wall. if we cut ourselves, it kills the power. Brilliant!
I just like the phrase “flesh detecting technology” Sounds like something I need to buy for my next beach vacation.
I think what saddens me the most about that article is the fact that it was totally preventable. Why is it that in the middle of the information with every possible crumb of information so easy to find with the touch of a button can a table saw owner be so irresponsible. This is like when Jonny flunked his test at school and Mommy had to go and fight with the teacher on his behalf. Now he uses a high priced lawyer to convince a jury of his peers that it was not his fault he didn’t pay attention in shop class. I can see this trend of “its not my fault” and this is only going to get worse it is a cancer that will slowly eat America from the inside out.
I think more people should watch The Wood Whisperer, there is always a comment about safety or precautions.
Since I don’t have the space and budget, yet, for table saws and planer/jointers, I make do with my circular saw and electric hand plane, but I always clamp my workpieces, it cost me some time, but it saves me from injuries.
I completely agree with you Marc… Maybe he should just stick to using a “Fisher Price” tools!
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Fish.....x/10040255
Even if it does not appear that the guy really had a case against Ryobi I don’t think manufacturers should be free of responsibility. I’m talking in the bigger picture. It’s true that all saws come with a blade guard. But it’s also true that most blade guards are throw away pieces because they are unusable. Riving knives were included in most saws only after it was mandatory even though it’s not a really expensive addition. As far fetch as this case sounds it may help the woodworking community in the long run if it forces manufacturers to concentrate a little bit more on improving security. As someone already mentioned the saw stop flesh detection technology appears to be the single most important improvement in recent memory. Or I’m I missing some other improvement that would challenge it?
This guy should have one read the directions before using the table saw to see that he should have been using a $3000 SawStop table saw that has the safety built in so we could all find out how well it works with human flesh. The way he should have tried it out is to stick his head into to it so if it did not stop that could be one less stupid person on this planet and when it went to court it would be thrown out since everyone would know that it is not made to stick your head into it.
I did like the car analogy but if their wasn’t any push from lawsuits or by the public we would still driving cars without seatbelts or no airbags. $40.00 saw (thats one cheap saw)but the most expensive saws without a failsafe feature can do just as much damage. The user was probably careless and should maybe have not received that much compensation, I wonder if this would wake up the other tooling manufactures. If there is a way to eliminate injury from one of the major tools we use offen why not do something about it.
The only thing I am saying is that there is no push from the woodworking community to get other manufactures to adapt similar or other technologies for there saws.
Yes the SawStop is expensive but if more manufactures adopted such features eventually the market will take care of the price (look we use to pay over $200 for a microwave).
I know one thing I would not look at any of the famous people in woodworking or ones that are receiving money for there advertising to do something.
When does personal responsiblity account for anything? I spent much more than $250 on my table saw. I never once considered blaming Delta after I cut my fingers. The saw worked as promised. It cuts whatever is in front of the blade. I was the one that put my hand there.
Too many people just want someone else to blame. Grow up!
Am I the only one here that is abject paranoid about the blade and refuse to put my fingers anywhere near the blade when running or even plugged in? That’s what jigs, push sticks, blocks etc… are for, not to mention the guard!
Admittedly Ryobi’s guards stink, but they do provide a barrier between flesh, and moving blade when used.
I am not convinced that the blade brake technology is all that reliable in a real world situation either. From what I understand Sawstop recommends cleaning the whole assembly after 50 hours of use. I wonder how many SS owners actually do that? And if a SS blade brake is jammed up with dust, how does that impact its function?
Shop machines can be DANGEROUS, we all knew that going in, or at least we should. Those that have an excuse for not knowing won’t be seeing this here because they are illiterate…
This is as stupid as say suing Winchester because the bullet didn’t have a flesh detection technology that would deflect a bullet away from a person that was being shot…
If you shove your hand into a moving saw blade, expect to lose some digits, if not your entire hand… Duh…
you know what would be really funny is if the guy who got this money found this blog post and saw all these comments lol
Don’t agree with the lawsuit, guy cut his own fingers off.
I’m a novice and if the cut is tight I use a push stick or push blocks… How they spun the court on this is amazing, now we’ll have a federal office for the use manufacturing of power tools… or some major federally mandated recall.
On the other hand there should be more safety features like the SawStop break on affordable saws, it is worth it.
I know that I am responsible for my fingers but if money wasn’t an issue I would have the sawstop, just in case.
I think that anyone who uses a saw should know that there is a possibility of an accident. When I was outfitting my shop I went and looked at all the companies that are selling table saws.
After a good amount of looking we bought the SawStop system, we got what we wanted and paid more than expected, with the security of knowing that I might not loose a finger to an accident but there still is that chance, good saftey education is what is needed.
The guy in the lawsuit should be shot, he knew what he was doing and still used a device that was not protected. I guess now we will see table saws starting at $1299 and up.
The car/scooter analogy doesn’t make too much sense – a little strange if you asked me. If you look how economy and luxury cars have improved safety within just the last ten years you’ll notice how seat belt and airbag technology have become standard features in the industry. Assume only luxury cars adopted these basic safety features, you would then see a lot of pressure on the economy vehicles to carry the same safety devices. The consumer demands the best and safest products, and it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to offer the consumer the better product, hence competitive markets is the basis of capitalism. Therefore the manufacturer who doesn’t respond to the consumer market will suffer and lose market share. As I mentioned before the economies of scale for this industry is great and any increase in price will not be noticeable to the consumer. All wood workers should want big business held to account for their safety, regardless if it is a fool or a genius using the equipment. We do have plenty of fools driving vehicles and when they crash the airbags still work.
Well, can I introduce you guys to our new, completely safe building system?
Ready to tackle any project you can think of. No tools required (or brain) No risk to personal injury. Welcome to the exiting world of LEGO!!!
Twit
Obviously, you have never stepped on one of those things. The kids leave them around, and WHAMOO! in the middle of the night you get a blue cube jammed in your foot. :-)
I’m of two minds here, I like the SS and wish saws came with better guards, but the electronic brake may be overkill. The stock guards are of limited use and proven to be insufficient by the huge numbers of injuries each year. Better protection is available but not included on many saws. Riving knifes and overarm guards are simpler, proven and old. My accident would have been prevented by a usable splitter and the one on my saw caused endless problems. I had to remove it to make that cut. Afterwords I retrofitted a usable splitter and overarm guard. After 5 years, I rarely need to remove that splitter and it takes 2 seconds to remove and 2 seconds to replace. The overarm never comes off and takes a second to adjust to my needs. These are what TS makers should have to put on saws years ago. I’m an engineer and know the cost of adding these should be a few dollars the next time they retool. Doing it specifically would cost a lot more but they should be retooling on a several year cycle.
Wow is all I can say. I am fairly new to the craft. But I remember as a kid my grandfather was always in the basemnet working with wood. And even though I was only like 11 or 12 he was planting the woodworking seed, pausing in between every step to tell me what was going on and how to do it safely. Recently my grandfather passed (Not due to a shop accident). And i have always done woodwork in my spare time. In my grandfathers honor and to relieve stress and to deal with the grief. I have been spending hours and hours and hours in the shop. And even being the amatuer or hobbyist that I am (well lately I have been eating, breathing, sleeping, wood) And the best piece of advice I was ever given has to be ” If you dont feel comfortable with it, dont do it). Be smart people please weigh out the pros and cons before you lose your fingers. I would say before you venture into the world of power tools and spinning and oscilating equipment know that the chance of an injury whether it be minute or major is something you have to face. May or may not happen but it always could happen.
I really dont feel Like I am up high enough on the woodworking totem to praise or dishonor saw stop technology.However I will say that I do have some education in electricity, and continuity and all that, so I can defineately say the sawstop concept seems to be fairly simple and very very adaptable. I love simple machines and the fact that they have to become so complicacted is for this very reason. There is a saying dont remeber where I heard it but it goes ” Keep it simple stupid”. In an over complicated society everything that used to seem so simple now seems like rocket science. Life has been made so complicated by so many single person actions. Do people even thnk things through anymore we are living in a impulsive genertion and that is a very very scary thing. Its a fire and forget missle.
One more Thing I am 26. I do not consider myself apart of the bubble wrap society. And in reality if I got hurt on one of my tools my pride would stand between me and a lawsuit like a inpenatrable force. I would never emberass my self in the way this doofus has. Nor do I feel a single bit of envy. Mr. T said it best “I pitty the fool!”
Thank you very much for allowing me to ramble.
The car/scooter analogy doesn’t make too much sense – a little strange if you asked me. If you look how economy and luxury cars have improved safety within just the last ten years you’ll notice how seat belt and airbag technology have become standard features in the industry. Assume only luxury cars adopted these basic safety features, you would then see a lot of pressure on the economy vehicles to carry the same safety devices. The consumer demands the best and safest products, and it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to offer the consumer the better product, hence competitive markets is the basis of capitalism. Therefore the manufacturer who doesn’t respond to the consumer market will suffer and lose market share. As I mentioned before the economies of scale for this industry is great and any increase in price will not be noticeable to the consumer. All wood workers should want big business held to account for their safety, regardless if it is a fool or a genius using the equipment. We do have plenty of fools driving vehicles and when they crash the airbags still work.
The “flesh detecting technology†is going to make my Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw awful clumsy. Sorry Tom it is just technology, “shift†happens. :P
Mark on a side note you mentioned the hot coffee, did you know the little old lady that was burned with 3rd degree burns on 6% of her body, and was burned a total of 16% and spent 8 days in the hospital with skin grafts? She only asked for them to pay her medical bills and of course they said no….. and the restaurant required the coffee to be 40+ degrees higher than most other restaurants. She received less that ½ what McDonalds makes in profits for one day off their coffee sales.
I am not judging one side or the other, but I think this guy found a “good†lawyer. And I am sure this will be in court again. And probably overturned.
-Bob
I live right near Malden and have half a mind to find out where this guy lives and help him with his remaining fingers…..
Nobody forced this guy to buy a saw without the flesh detection technology. He could have bought one that had it and avoided the problem. If a manufacturer doesn’t include it, that doesn’t make them liable. They have a disclaimer on the documentation that says it is dangerous, you could hurt yourself, and thus liability is waived. Jurors are too quick award money for anything. They tend to think that it could happen to them and that they want to collect should it occur. What they don’t realize is that now all table saws will have to have this feature, all older table saws will have to be recalled to avoid lawsuits, or you will have to sign a waiver before buying anything. I think the last option is what will happen in the future. You will have to give up all your rights if you want to buy something. Too much greed and stupidity going on right now. When will people wake up and take responsibility for their own actions?
I feel bad that the guy cut his fingers, however I’m sure the owners manual made the safety concerns very clear. If someone is worried about safety, there is an alternative on the market (Saw Stop) and they should buy that. Also, just because Saw Stop invented the technology it doesn’t mean all manufacturers can use it. I’m sure Saw Stop has that thing patented up the wazoo and would charge a hefty license to other manufacturers, which as Marc said, would push the price to a range out of reach to the vast majority of woodworkers.
We take risks every day. It is a fact of life. It is up to the individual to decide which risks are acceptable and which are not.
Assuming the article on inc.com is correct, the licensing fee would have topped out at 8% of the wholesale cost.
In addition to this there would be the cost of manufacturing and installing the technology on the saw.
I don’t know much about marketing/mark ups or pricing, but this does not seem to be an impossible cost burden to me.
Again, not saying every saw should be mandated to have it, just that it should be available on more than one saw brand.
Whatever the sawstop costs now, a Delta, Dewalt or whatever would cost a heck of a lot less if mass production were in full swing.
My opinion is that in the case of a hobbyist or self-employed individual using any tool, it is the responsibility of that individual for his or her safety. If it is a business, it is the responsibility of the business owner/manager to do what is required to protect the employee. This doesn’t necessarily mean install fail-safe methods but it does mean to install some sort of method, instruction and education. It is the responsibility of the tool manufacturer to inform the buyer of the risks associated with the tool. Education and information is almost always the best prevention.
Tim
Just what we need, another frivolous lawsuit! And these people are the same ones that complain about the prices of things, and insurance costs. I agree with the person that said something about an IQ test.
If you want the history of SawStop and how they approached all the manufactures before in 2001, then check out this link below on this article.
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20.....-gass.html
I do agree that we must use our brains and common sense on shop safety. But any safety improvements that can lower the risk of injury on any power tools I am for. I believe the manufactures should back this technology for liability reason/marketing incentives, as well as there diligence in custom safety. SawStop technology can be adapted to just about any power tools out there. They just need the manufactures to sign on, thus lowering the price, in return us the customers receiving a better product. This is my opinion and take on this.
I’m skipping many of the comments due to time constraints… Don’t worry, I’ll read them all later today.
Marc mentions smacking the fellow upside the head for not thinking safety at the saw; might I suggest using the same bloody chunk of wood he got injured with?
If he was cutting wood flooring, I’m assuming he is going with the “cheapest and best” option to do this under budget. I did not see whether he was working on his own home or was contracted to do the work by someone else. The jury may have been selected on the basis of “job” and not “work being done,” so they missed the safety feature portion of the arguments. For that matter, how many lawyers get into woodworking? Probably more than I think, but does anybody on their staff think of the same details that appear as common sense to those of us who deal with wood regularly?
As for the SawStop and “flesh detection technology,” I was under the opinion (note, I don’t have facts to entirely back it up at the moment) that the patent forbids anybody using the technology without paying the licensing fee (usually a hefty sum to offset the patent costs, and passed on to the consumer to offset the manufacturer’s costs of a: redesign and b: license fees). While there is usually a time limit on the patent that others are not allowed to copy/use identical technology, there are types of patents that can completely prevent use of the described technology for as long as the patent is filed.
This does not prevent One World from doing R&D on their own version of “flesh detection technology,” merely prohibits them from using the same technology as the type SawStop uses. (As to what constitutes “the same,” for that you should consult with legal advisors, as I do not happen to be one.)
As for the Wood Whisperer Fun Suit, I have two questions. First, do you provide this in a breathable leather with optional full-protection helmet (complete with built in EarLex)? And Two: Do you accept payment plans via checks on regular mailings? (Original sheathed untoothed saw is not required at this time.)
Yes I agree the saw stop feature is a great one if they start selling a lot of their saws then maybe the other manufacturers will adopt it or come up with their own. However, I believe that this case is not nearly as much about the idiot who filed the suit nor the greedy ambulance chasing lawyer (unfortunately, they get chalked up to human nature) but rather the judicial system which allowed this case to see the inside of the courtroom in the first place. As for the jury, I ask that anyone who could come to this conclusion never be called one of my peers.
Hummmmm, bet that every potential juror was asked if he/she did any woodworking and those who did where challenged and kept from serving on the jury by this great woodworker’s attorneys. Wonder if they asked him, as he must know the technology existed, why did u not buy a saw with that device on it to begin with??? would like to see a transcript of all the testimony.
Well hell, fact is, this case proves our jury selection process works as designed. A jury of numb-nut dummies was picked for this numb-nut dummy gold digger. Truly a jury of his peers.
I’m a lawyer. This is why people hate lawyers. I apologize for the jackass shyster who took this case, but I suspect there was not one lawyer on the jury. With verdicts like this, pretty soon you’ll have to be a plumber to afford a tablesaw.
I think there are two separate issues here: whether this woodworker should have won, and whether the SawStop technology should be standard equipment on table saws.
For the first – today, it’s absurd to suggest a table saw manufacturer is negligent for not including SawStop technology. It’s just not standard table saw equipment.
Did this woodworker get injured because of his own stupidity? Maybe. We don’t have all the details. But a huge number of people get maimed by table saws each year, and I, for one, am hesitant to assume all of them are stupid.
But even if he isn’t a moron, I do think it’s fair to say that he’s the responsible one. Everyone who uses a table saw knows there are dangers, and should know whether the saw has SawStop technology.
For the second – YES. It is unbelievable to me that this technology is not yet standard equipment. This seems to be hands-down the best safety advancement in the shop – maybe ever! Apart from the initial cost, it has virtually no impact on your work unless it activates. Every other safety feature I can think of trades convenience for safety, and therefore tends to get disabled or removed.
SawStop deserves fair compensation for their invention. The community of tablesaw users deserves this level of safety on their equipment. How can the conflict between these two interests be resolved?
Reading these posts I’ve come to realize some woodworkers are just plain ignorant-like children who don’t know what’s good and bad. SAW STOP TECHNOLOGY IS GOOD FOR YOU GUYS & GIRLS- clear your minds for a second from all that wood dust and voc’s you’ve been breathing in,think about it a little and you may realize that having a safer product is a benefit=good (realize how voc’s and wood dust have been drastically REDUCED for you health, therefore eliminating the possibility of cancers). Just to point out most consumer product improvements in regards to safety are there because of these lawsuits we all hate. So, you may not be here right now reading this post if it wasn’t for some litigation in years past that established safety guidelines for X product you now use. Some of you, not all, cannot even fathom the R&D that went into product safety that you so readily take for granted.
As for the cost of a table saw, they won’t dramatically go up like marc assumes, for pete’s sake, what does he know about business and economics besides the wood whisperer and being a goofball? Forget about the lawsuit, that is besides the point. Of course we all hate attorneys and frivolous lawsuits. Being a business owner I’ve been a victim of many frivolous lawsuits and have spent hundreds of thousands defending my corp, so I am very familiar with irrational beings when I see and hear them. All the garbage these retards have put me through, putting if crudely, I still believe the court system is a good venue for precedent. We are not perfect beings, except for me of course, that is why human nature needs to be controlled and guided by rules, laws, religion and government. I sometimes may not like a judgement that is not in my favor, but I always can say I learned from it and improve and make my product better, faster, stronger – you get the point. Well, you’ll see in 3-5 years from now, hopefully sooner, this will be a standard mechanism on most table saws, which is a very good thing for anyone who works with this tool.
While I agree with most of your post Rick, I hope you were joking with your comment about my knowledge of business and economics, considering that was pretty rude and you don’t know my educational background. I also think you are kidding yourself if you don’t think the cost of a cheap Rybobi saw would increase dramatically with that technology added. How much does it really take to “dramatically” increase the price of a $100 saw. Even if it only went up $25, that’s still 25%. In my book, that is dramatic. And it wont be until the technology is mass produced and widely adopted that we can even expect the price to go down, which I agree they eventually will.
Marc, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth in responding to Rick’s comments so I will suspend what I was going to say to him. I might get a little inappropriate with my comments to him.
The saw manufacturer in this case should, in my opinion, appeal this verdict and award as far as it needs to go for them to get it reversed. I would hope that there would be many, many “Friend of the Court” briefs submitted in support of the manufacturer on appeal, as applies to this type case anyway. A reversal in this case may go a long way to getting some much needed and meaningful tort reform legislation enacted. I am not an attorney or I believe I would be motivated to get very involved in this effort.
Some,such as Rick, it seems, would have manufactures of all products be compelled to produce nothing but the top of the line Cadillac and Mercedes Benz models, incorporating every conceivable feature some concerned paternalistic or maternal-listic do-gooder wanted, for our own good of course, regardless of what the consumer wants or demands.
Some consumers, for instance, wanted the Yugo instead of the Cadillac. They accept the increased risk of driving a Yugo when they buy it, as opposed to the Cadillac. (It is the consumers responsibility to make comparisons as to suitability, usability, safety etc, in a free market economy any way.)
Rick, it seems, would have Yugo be held responsible for not selling the consumer a Cadillac disguised as a Yugo when the consumer had the option and decided he/she wanted a Yugo instead.
Rick, might I suggest you read up a bit on economics. Start with Thomas Sowell’s book “Basic Economics” along with Milton Friedman’s works and, also add in for good measure “The Wealth of Nations” by Adam Smith. These are much better than most texts in biased university courses.
Granted, I only have a high school education, but, I did learn to read. And, I was brought up to accept that the responsibility for my actions, or inaction, is all mine. If equipment functions as designed and represented by the manufacturer, how can they be held responsible for how it is used or the results of that use?
I have never seen a table saw for sale without a blade guard. I would very much like to read the transcript of the trial, but i find it hard to believe that this would have happened if the individual did not circumvent or remove the guard and refuse to follow safety instructions provided with the equipment. It is likely, in my opinion, that this guy did much as I did years ago when I was installing flooring as an independent contractor. I used a small cheap table saw to cut hardwood flooring (my first hardwood flooring job). I removed the guard and fence, using only the miter gauge. I came out intact, but I also accepted the risk if I slipped and cut something off, an increased risk due to pressures to get the job done fast. It was cheaper than buying a power miter saw, which would have not only been safer, but much easier to produce good results(OK, faster too.). I got one before the next job.
I believe, without seeing the trial transcript, this guy was cutting corners to increase profit
I want choice Rick, and yes, I do wood work. I want choice so put me down as woodworker not wanting your desires forced on me. And further, Rick, I will make the decisions in my life as to what I consider Good and Bad. You can relieve yourself of that responsibility, I refuse to give it to you or any body else.
In fact, I may get the kapex with mft for the next job. Faster and safer. Wish I had had that setup on all wood flooring jobs I had done.
I’ve been reading following this posts since Marc posted it last Monday and I got to say I’m happy to finally read some rational comments courtesy of Mathew and Rick even if Rick’s comment is more agressive than it should have. I was starting to convince myself I was in the wrong hobby. If my desire was to tempt fate I would joined motocycle raising, skydiving or any other dangerous hobby. The reason I love woodworking has nothing to do with the dangers of the hobby. Anything that can help minimize the dangerous aspect of this hobby is great in my book. I also don’t understand the saw stop haters, since I’m sure most of them agree with blade guards, riving knives, etc… Regarding Marc’s comment about entry level saws costing more then why don’t we remove Blade Guards, Splitters, Use screws to set the fence instead of simple lock down mechanisms and remove any electrical fail safe circuit. That way instead of a 100 dollar saw we can get one for 50 dollars. If adding additional safety features that really work mean that the entry level saw costs at least $350 I don’t see any problem. If the high end cabinet saws then cost $500 dollars more I don’t see anything wrong with that either.
Are you suggesting we do wood work because we like the risks involved? And to temp fate??? Hummmm.
I do not see saw stop haters here. I think the technology is great. If you want it, if you think you need it, if you think the risk is worth it, then buy it. Leave to me the choice as to whether I think it is worth the cost for me. Leave to me the choice as to whether or not I use any safety device on any of my tools when it only affects my use and health. Also leave to me the responsibility for my choices. And you keep responsibility for choices and purchases you make.
I sure hope we remain a “free choice” country. That verdict should have been against the plaintiff and the plaintiff should have to pay the manufacturer for misuse of the tool-perhaps.
I would like to add that if I had employees I would, as the cheapest form of insurance available, incorporate the saw stop technology in every tool possible to protect the employee. Also, it would be a cheap insurance policy against the actions of any slip and fall attorney who was waiting for an injury to occur to one of my employees. That would make sound economic sense, in my opinion.
Nothing wrong with the technology, unless some part fails to operate as intended sometime and an attorney finds out about it. I just do not find it necessary to incorporate into my work environment at this time. That OK with you?
I think this has been a fantastic post/s with a lot of great arguments and conclusions. Unfortunately I feel it has turned to the direction that maybe it should be put to rest. Seems as though it is creating hard feelings and a lot of bashing. Anybody think we or Marc should maybe cut this one while we all still like each other?
I think you might be right Mike. This horse is dead. And honestly, very few people are going to read the entire 197 comments anyway. It was a heck of a run though!
Thanks to everyone for your constructive and thoughtful comments! I think this is the most commented post ever on our site!