155 – Waterborne Finishes & HVLP

Video - August 23, 2011

Technically, this is really Part 4 of our Wall-Hanging Tool Chest build, but because I focused so strongly on waterborne finishes and HVLP (High Volume Low Pressure spraying), it received its own stand-alone title.

When I made this project in the Guild, I asked our members what type of finish they would like to see me use. The votes came in and the majority of folks wanted to see a waterborne finish applied via HVLP. So my finish of choice was General Finishes High Performance. I used the Earlex HV6900 to do the spraying and I was thrilled with the results. Even after a couple of years of use in the shop, the finish is still holding up very nicely!

Discussion

Charlie Moore August 23, 2011 9:49 am

Great video Marc, I caught it the first time on the Guild site and now that I am spraying WB finishes I am glad I watched again, new tips are great to have. I like the GF stuff, but I tried some products from Target coatings and love them even more, have you tried anything from Target coatings?
Take care and keep up the good work!

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 24, 2011 8:03 am
  
  I have yet to try anything from Target, but I have heard great things about their stuff.
  
  Reply
  - Charlie Moore August 24, 2011 8:34 am
    
    Target also makes a waterborne shellac, which is really
    easy to use and only water clean up, no alcohol. I’m not sure of how to reduce the cut though as it only comes in a 2# cut.
    I like my traditional shellac more and mostly for that reason.
    You should give them a shake though, they might still be running the free ship promo.
    Take care
    
    Reply
Katie-in-Oxford August 23, 2011 10:53 am

i’ve been using GF wb products for over a year now; all of my topcoats are either the High Performance above, Enduro Pre-Cat, and using tons of the Enduro-Var–has a slight ambering effect, and tough as heck. All are “green” if i remember correctly. i’ve just emptied two gallon containers this morning doing trim (whole house, new construction) and have another 4 gallons of EnduroVar waiting eagerly to do the cabinets for this house!! and the support from GF has always been great!!

Reply
Everett August 23, 2011 7:44 pm

Dude, you read my mind. i was looking to maybe do waterbased on my next project

Reply
Everett August 23, 2011 7:56 pm

Can you wipe Water bourne finishes on?

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 24, 2011 8:03 am
  
  You can get away with it on smaller projects. But on anything large, I find it very difficult to wipe on.
  
  Reply
John August 23, 2011 8:33 pm

Marc, great job on finishing. I have used GF for awhile now and am a huge fan of it. I have sprayed it and foam brushed it on, really levels exceptionally well. For future camera spraying operations, if you havent already thought of it, build yourself an acrylic box ;-)

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George Barry August 24, 2011 8:45 am

Great job Marc. I don’t have much experience with the water borne finishes but I do have the Earlex Spray Station and I love it.

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Steve August 24, 2011 11:12 am

Mark, any reason for choosing your Earlex over the Fuji for this project?

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Tom Pritchard August 24, 2011 12:14 pm

I enjoyed your video as always. At this current time the HVLP system would be the way to go. Thanks for your advise and pointers.

Thanks
Tom

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pj August 24, 2011 4:59 pm

Mark, why are you wearing a jacket at the end of the video? Isn’t it like 112 degrees in Arizona.

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 24, 2011 5:13 pm
  
  Because this was recorded a couple years ago. :)
  
  Reply
Ed August 24, 2011 9:13 pm

Thanks for the great video as always. As a novice, it’s amazing how much that I’ve learned from your video podcasts. And I really appreciate the scientific backstory whenever applicable (as a former scientist myself, that’s the cherry on top of the sundae).

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 25, 2011 7:14 am
  
  Thanks Ed!
  
  Reply
Arnaud August 25, 2011 4:37 am

Great video again, thanks for the great tips.

I am about to spray WB finish using the same Earlex on the louvered doors I have just finished. Do you have any tip in terms of the angle to spray the doors at to ensure the slats are well covered and there is no excess on their edges where they enter the frame? Thanks a lot.

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 25, 2011 7:03 am
  
  To be honest, I have never sprayed louvered doors. And most times when I spray something new, I have to have my hands in the work to develop a new strategy that works best for me. So I sort of learn as I go. After all, the first coat usually soaks in so much that you don’t have to worry about it being perfect. But the first coat tells me a lot about where I need to back off and what areas I should focus on more. My guess is the end grain of the slats (where they enter the frame) will likely get coated fairly well from the overspray generated by finishing the other sections. So you may not have to worry about it at all. Just sand it smooth between coats so it isn’t all rough.
  
  Reply
Anson August 25, 2011 7:49 am

Great video as always Marc. But I have a compressor not a turbine, what HVLP gun would you suggest for me?

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 25, 2011 7:51 am
  
  Hey Anson. I don’t personally have much experience with conversion gun setups. its a bit more involved so the best recommendation I can give you is to go talk to Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing. He can not only recommend a setup for you, but he’s also the guy to buy it from: http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/
  
  Reply
Max August 25, 2011 10:03 am

Thanks Marc, great info. I was hoping you could talk a little about the differences between all GF’s waterborne finishes. On the GF website, they claim that both the Enduro-Var and the High Perf Poly are the “most durable.” I know the Enduro-Var has a slight amber tint and High Perf doesn’t, but are there any other differences? Add to that the Polyacrylic and the Wood Turner’s Finish, and I’m downright confused.

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 26, 2011 2:51 pm
  
  Hey Max. No need to be confused my friend. Ultimately, both the High Performance and the EnduroVar will both give you a great finish. So you might even make your decision based on whether or not you want that amber color from the EnduroVar.
  
  Personally, I feel the EnduroVar is going to give you the most durable finish. Hard to say just how much more durable it will be and this is only a theoretical assumption. Its pretty much all urethane and gives you a bit more of an oil-like look. The High Performance material is a mix of polyurethane and acrylic and doesn’t give the amber tone.
  
  The Turner’s finish is said to be similar to EnduroVar in composition, but formulated differently for wiping and use on turnings. I don’t think its going to offer any advantage on a furniture piece.
  
  Reply
Billiam August 25, 2011 7:49 pm

It looks like you like your palm trees as much as I do. :) The most worthless trees in my opinion. No shade, tons of cleanup.
Love the finish…another great video!

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 25, 2011 7:53 pm
  
  Actually, that one was dead when we bought the house. It was a foreclosure so before we purchased the place, a number of trees were lost. That stump has since been removed and replaced. I am fairly opinionated about the trees but nicole loves the palms for some reason. Must be because she’s from Missouri. :)
  
  Reply
Lazy Larry August 26, 2011 1:42 pm

Hi Marc this has come at just the right time.. I have several projects ready for finish and am looking at using the Earlex 5000 … previously I have used marine varnish… but want to move over the water based finishes… so your video will be a great help..

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John Hall August 26, 2011 6:32 pm

Marc: Great video. I haven’t jumped into spraying except from cans. I do a lot of scroll saw fret work and think the earlex would be great for that. How does the Earlex 5500 stand up next to the unit you used in the video?

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 26, 2011 8:01 pm
  
  The 5500 is a great unit. Its just not as well-built and a little less powerful than the unit I used here. Ultimately though for the hobbyist shop, I think the 5500 is probably the best buy.
  
  Reply
Wen August 26, 2011 10:44 pm

Hey Marc,
What do you think of gravity floe HVLP sprayers for WB finishes such as Minwax Polycrylic?

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 27, 2011 7:25 am
  
  Gravity sprayers are fine. Just have to get used to having the liquid above your hand instead of below it. I personally prefer siphon as it is more comfortable to me and easier to manage. But that’s really just personal preference.
  
  Reply
Tommy August 27, 2011 1:24 pm

This was really helpful for me! Just one question: why do you need to change to a different diameter needle if the gun has other flow controls built in?

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 27, 2011 2:26 pm
  
  Hey Tommy. The tip size is usually changed based on the viscosity of the liquid. The thicker it is, the wider the opening needs to be. Think about sucking a milkshake through a coffee stirrer. No matter how much you suck, you aren’t going to get much milkshake. So you need to user a larger needle/cap to allow the thicker fluid to flow through. Also keep in mind that if you put a really thin liquid through a wider tip, you might not get proper atomization. But once you have the proper tip installed, the flow control then allows you to control how much liquid is being pushed out of the gun.
  
  Reply
jonny transcend August 28, 2011 10:16 am

I started as a big fan of oil based products like conversion varnish and lacquers. But over the last few years I have began to solely use waterborne finishes. The waterborne finishes really can compete well when it comes to durability.

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David August 29, 2011 6:54 am

I have loved watching your videos. I have learned a lot that I will be applying to my projects.
One question about the spraying process with the HVLP. Between spraying coats of finish, do you clean out the gun or is the time short enough between to leave it all set up? Will the waterborne finish dry in the gun between coats?

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 29, 2011 7:51 am
  
  I can’t recall the exact time in the video but I believe I do mention this issue. For water-base I don’t clean the gun out during the day. But if its overnight I will indeed clean it out. Between spraying sessions, the tip will skin over and you just use your fingernail to pop it off.
  
  Reply
  - Arnaud August 30, 2011 2:21 pm
    
    Hi Marc. What about for oil based finish? How long can you leave it the spray can for and could you leave it overnight? I think you mentioned this in a previous video but i cant remember which one. Thanks
    
    Reply
    - thewoodwhisperer August 30, 2011 3:21 pm
      
      I never really spray oil-based finishes, but I wouldn’t be comfortable leaving it overnight. My rule of thumb is anything that can’t be redissolved needs to be cleaned out daily. So waterborne and oil would be cleaned each day and lacquer and shellac I wouldn’t mind leaving overnight.
medfloat August 29, 2011 9:15 am

Good info on spraying and watching your techique helps. Did you get such good technique because you were a break dancer and mastered the robot? Domo arigato Mr. Roboto…domo

Dan

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 30, 2011 3:19 pm
  
  Got my parachute pants and everything!
  
  Reply
Chad Tennant August 29, 2011 11:51 am

It appears, from what you mentioned in the video, that you used nearly 1.25 quarts of finish.

If you had brushed the finish on, how much would you estimate you would have used?

One of the things that has kept me away from using a spray system is the apparent waste of finish, and thus the money spent on it…..I am not called the Tennessee Yankee for nothing.

Percentage wise, about how much more finish do you use spraying compared to hand applying?

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 30, 2011 9:03 am
  
  Hey Chad. Honestly, there are finishes that I spray and finishes that I wipe. I rarely do anything with water-based other than spray so its hard for me to tell you how much more I use compared to brushing.
  
  Reply
  - Chad Tennant September 20, 2011 9:33 am
    
    If you were to compare the quantity needed to finish a project, if it took one quart of brush/wipe on poly to properly cover a project (say three layers), how many quarts would it take to spray (even if waterborne finish)?
    
    I am just trying to get an idea of how much more or less I would have to buy when compared to what I normally have used (which is brush on finish).
    
    Thanks
    
    Reply
    - thewoodwhisperer September 20, 2011 9:46 am
      
      I know it sounds silly Chad but I have never thought about it that much so I can’t give you an accurate answer. And I tend to buy finish like a fashionista buys shoes. So I rarely go out and specifically buy a quantity of finish for a particular project. I nearly always “see what’s in the cabinet” and go from there. HVLP is indeed going to be a little more wasteful but you aren’t going to use up twice as much finish. So if you would normally use up one can, its not like you can buy a half can extra. So just buy two cans. :)
Dean August 30, 2011 2:44 pm

You mentioned overspray on your camera lens. Have you considered using a clear or UV filter? If your concerned about vignetting or distortion toward the edges at the wide angle settings, then specify a “thin” filter. If your concerned about lens flare and ghosting caused by reflections then add multi-coating to the specification. I don?t know all the things you shoot videos of, but unless you are shooting a lot of distance shots, you may not need a UV filter. For your TWW videos a clear filter would be okay.

If you do purchase a filter, please buy a quality filter like Hoya, B+W, Nikon, and so on. The filter needs to be cleaned with the same care as your lens. Unless your lens replacement is close to or lower in cost than a filter, it?s probably reasonable to purchase a filter. This is just an opinion.

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer August 30, 2011 3:19 pm
  
  Hey Dean. I actually do use a UV filter at all times. And I do treat it as if it were my primary lens. So technically my lens was fine and it was just the filter that required a little cleaning. :)
  
  Reply
Mike September 2, 2011 9:28 pm

Hey Marc,
Looked a little breezy while you were spraying. Looked like you got caught in a bit of a cloud at times.
Confucius say “always point HVLP sprayer in same direction you pee. With the wind!” ;)

Reply
VitalBodies September 12, 2011 12:27 am

You might need an under water camera if you had any more wind that you did.
Interesting how much difference that Boiled Linseed oil made in the final appearance. From the video, it would seem that the beauty of the grain really shows with that added. Could not tell if that is a video/lighting/angle issue or a difference in the look of the final product.

Reply
Scott Burt September 24, 2011 6:51 am

Mark

Good info. There is alot of confusion about waterbornes and oil modifieds as they integrate into spray technologies. I do alot with them using hvlp, air assisted, airmix and even handheld cordless. Its a learning curve compared to traditional sprayed finishes, but is definitely the future of coating technologies. Thanks for sharing.

Reply
John October 20, 2011 11:11 pm

Hi Marc,
Thanks for this great video! I’m about to finish two big chests of drawers in alder (and poplar inside). I’ve only used wiping oil finishes before, and thinking to try hvlp for the first time with this project. Hopefully save a lot of labor! So I bought the inexpensive Rockler hvlp system. I’m thinking of a coat of shellac (blonde dewaxed flakes) all over (including drawer interiors), followed by a few coats of GF PolyAcrylic just on the exterior surfaces. I’m hoping the shellac will bring some amber like what you gained with the BLO, and also prevent blotchiness on the alder, while also pre-raising the grain. Does this all sound ok so far?
Some questions: Can I clean the gun well enough between finishes to use the same gun for both shellac and polyacrylic? (a sales guy at the store said I absolutely must buy two guns to reserve one per finish type, but that seems a bit overkill!). Do I clean the gun after shellac just by spraying alcohol through it? And does a 1.5 lb cut sound about right for spraying?

Thanks again Marc for all that you do!
John

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer October 21, 2011 7:59 am
  
  That all sounds fine to me. In the ideal world, you would have two guns. But I have a gun that I have sprayed everything from oil, to water, to shellac, to lacquer. Since then, I have switched over to a multi-gun system, keeping my water-based finishes separate. But initially I did what I had to do to get by.
  
  So rinsing the cup and parts with denatured alcohol is the key to getting that shellac out of there. Spraying a good amount through the gun should help clean out the internal parts but you might want to pull it apart and clean it manually. Once everything seems clean, pour out the remaining ethanol and add some water. Spray about a 1/4″ cup’s worth of water through the gun. Then, pour out the remaining water and you should be ready to go with your water-based finish.
  
  Overall your strategy is sound and 1.5lb cut sounds perfectly reasonable. Good luck with the project!
  
  Reply
Mark Myers October 27, 2011 11:13 pm

Thanks. I really like the linseed oil (lindsey doyle?) idea. Am i correct in thinking.. you put on the oil as u said, wipe it and let it dry… then finish with water born something or other?

btw… u did this on our anniversary.

Mark

Reply
thewoodwhisperer October 28, 2011 3:40 pm

Yes, but you must let the oil cure completely. Several days. If the surface is even a little tacky, it can cause problems. So a nice coat of dewaxed shellac between the two would be the safer bet.

Reply
Pierre November 9, 2011 10:08 am

Some little question about water base finished. If a put leen seed oil first will get yellower with the years? and is it the home made mix of a hybrid finish?

thanks

Reply
Scott Haskins December 22, 2011 10:30 am

Hello Marc – nice video and very much enjoy your style and the work you do – you’re a big help!

I have a 5500 and have been spraying paint and tried a WB poly the other day – very disappointed… how do you determine / how do you get the right flow for WB? What’s too little of an amount (spray)? When it run, OK, too much… What’s just right and what should i be looking for?

I appreciate your help!

Scott – Lakeville, MN

Reply
- thewoodwhisperer December 22, 2011 11:05 am
  
  Hey Scott. There can be a lot of subtlety to getting a finish to spray perfectly. Many times its not just a matter of pouring it in the gun and getting to work. Many times, the manufacturer will have recommendations for not only tip size, but also viscocity, for ideal spraying with certain materials. At the very least, you want to make sure you follow those instructions. From that point, you will want to play with the gun’s settings on scrap just to see what the results are.
  
  Frankly, I find this to be one of the most difficult things to explain (especially in the comments section of the site), lol. Its so much easier when you have visual examples. So for that reason I am going to recommend two resources. Both should give you some valuable visual insight into how to refine your spray patterns and flow.
  
  http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ.....1600850928
  
  http://shop.charlesneilwoodwor.....p_192.html
  
  Reply
Karen January 2, 2014 9:07 am

Marc, thanks for the timely video. We are starting a large cabinet project to include a wall and sliding door in mahogany plywood. Bought an Earlex 5500 upon your recommendation and can’t wait to use it. I stained the large (and heavy!) sliding door with an oil stain and plan on using Enduro-Var for the finish. Can I use Rust-Oleum Zinsser 308 Bulls Eye Clear Shellac in-between to prevent peeling? Also, with the door so heavy, can I spray it while it is horizontal on the work table, or do I need to place it vertical?

Love your website!

Reply
- Marc Spagnuolo January 2, 2014 9:16 am
  
  Hi Karen. If you’re going to use shellac between the stain and the topcoat, I’d prefer to see you use a dewaxed variety. I have found the shellac with wax in it to be a bit soft and prefer the dewaxed variety. And personally, I spray my parts while flat whenever possible. That way you can layer on a good amount of finish without the risk of runs and drips.
  
  Reply
Kyle Tucker January 5, 2014 9:07 pm

Mark,

Great video (as is everything else you do on here). I have a couple questions though as I am about to spray my first waterbased finish (General Polyacrylic) on some stools that I have stained via wiping with my first use of a waterbased stain (I’m using the Rockler HVLP as of now). First, how long can you leave the product in the gun for? I assume since you only had time for the three coats, and with the drying time and sanding between you probably were at about 6-8 hours? Assuming I am close and you had time for the final coat that day, is it safe to say that 8 hours would be the maximum? Also when did you switch to the 600 grit – right before the final application?
Lastly, and I am sure that you may have covered this before, but why did you not put a finishing room in the new shop? I am lucky enough to have about 1000 sq. feet in my shop, and I am really torn on building a dedicated 10×12 finishing room. It would be so nice not to have to cover things up due to overspray, etc., but man, that extra space sure is nice when you need the assembly area. Just curious as to your thoughts on having/not having one.
Thanks again, Happy New Year, and keep up the great work – I’m hoping I may have a chance to meet you in Des Moines this year…

Reply
Karen H December 5, 2014 1:29 pm

Hi Marc,
I have just sanded down my entire kitchen cabinets:frame and doors. They are maple. Twenty years ago when i had the house built, they sprayed the cabinets with lacquer. Over the years they have turned orange from the sunlight. Also they had many, many watermarks, EVERYWHERE. I have read that lacquer doesn,t repel water very well.Now i have these beautiful sanded maple cabinets and i am a novice when it comes to finishes.I had planned on putting two coats of Varithane/urathane on them. Then i found your website. Would the GF waterborne products be better for my cabinets than the oil based urathane for repeling water and sunlight? If so, which one specifically would you recommend for maple?I will be brushing it on. Also, i have sanded my cabinets down to 12o grit. What grit will i need to sand down to for the first coat? How many total coats should i apply and what grits should i sand with in between coats? I am elated to have found your website! I only hope i am not too inexperienced for you.

Reply
cole December 14, 2014 10:13 pm

What are the advantages of spraying over wiping a finish?

Reply
- Marc Spagnuolo December 15, 2014 6:29 am
  
  Speed is the greatest advantage for me. You can cover large projects quickly and the finish dries faster.
  
  Reply
  - cole December 15, 2014 8:53 am
    
    alright thanks Marc.
    
    Reply
Shelly Sade January 30, 2015 10:05 am

I would be interested in hearing a review on the Minwax Water Based Oil-Modified Polyurethane. Let me know if you do. Thanks

Reply
Thomas June 26, 2015 10:13 am

I know this is an old thread but I hope someone can answer my question. I sprayed this same top coat General Finish High Performance water based in satin on some cherry using rockler cheap HVLP system. This is the one for about 100 bucks. I find that I get orange peel effect and no matter how I spray I can’t get rid of it. The finish is not super smooth as a result of this. Is it the gun I’m using? It doesn’t have much adjustments. The only adjustment is on the amount of spray which comes out. You can’t control size of spray or amount of air. Would a better HVLP system solve my problem?

Reply
- Marc Spagnuolo June 26, 2015 8:09 pm
  
  Generally speaking, yes. The better turbines are more powerful and have less problems atomizing finishes. It can be a struggle with low power systems and guns that don’t have much in the way of settings. So you can maybe try diluting the finish a bit to see if that helps, but if it doesn’t it could very well just be a limitation of the HVLP unit.
  
  Reply
Mike September 6, 2015 8:26 am

Found your video very informative. I’ve been doing woodwork- furniture, cabinets, for many years. grew up on standard siphon air feed guns. Then epa stepped in took all good products off the shelf.( Calif.). Now I use latex paint and water Bourne Clears for finish .
I spray latex with airless. Finish is nice but not quit as fine as I like, uses way to much material. Brush on min wax water born for many cabinet projects. Way to laborious.
Looking to get into a system that will do both latex and water born spray.
I see you use erlex. Looking at Greco 9.5 as well as the titan 115 and the apollo 1050. Just can’t deside to move that way as I never used or seen these turbines used. I’m looking for a system that will spray a very nice final product.
Any advice?

Reply
- Marc Spagnuolo September 6, 2015 9:00 am
  
  Although I have no major issues with Earlex, I actually use my Fuji Turbines more in my shop. Their 4-stage unit is a beast and can handle paint well. They also have a new 5-stage pro unit coming out and I expect a review unit in the shop any day now. A 4-5 stage turbine should have no problem atomizing a latex paint so that’s the level of turbine I’d recommend. Apollo has a great reputation too so the 1050 would be a good option. I’m not familiar with Greco or Titan.
  
  Reply
David December 2, 2015 9:52 am

When you spray the finish how much are you looking to get on the surface, a full sheen of finish or a speckled thin coat? When I spray vertical areas I sometimes get areas that sag 10 minutes later.

Reply
Jeff Franklin December 20, 2015 5:06 pm

General Finishes High Performance is a polyurethane finish, correct? Isn’t polyurethane notoriously difficult to refinish? Granted polyurethane of this high quality should last a very long time, but when the time comes what do you do with polyurethane cabinets?

Reply
- Marc Spagnuolo December 21, 2015 8:54 am
  
  You either sand them smooth and apply more finish or you completely remove the finish and re-coat. Fortunately, it should be a VERY long time before anyone feels the need to refinish a project coated with a quality modern finish.
  
  Reply
Barry Jacobs December 23, 2015 2:29 am

From your 5500 review I purchased one for my newly built hard wood kitchen cabs. After 2 coats of primer/bonder sanding /2 coats Valspar Reservce All from Lowes. I’m getting small bumps (orange peals?) Must I sand smooth before clear top coat?
Love your show!

Reply
- Marc Spagnuolo December 23, 2015 7:42 am
  
  I would. Those tiny bumps will transfer into your topcoat. So a light 320 grit sanding should take care of them.
  
  Reply
Trevor October 26, 2017 10:05 pm

I’m having problems with spraying enduro var on my tables. I usually end up with a few bumps or maybe they seem like little bubbles after the enduro dries. Any advice? It is also waterborne

Reply

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155 – Waterborne Finishes & HVLP

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