Uneven Stain Absorption- Question of the Week
This week’s question comes from Robert. He writes:
When staining soft maple Kitchen doors and drawers from a millworks shop the painter applied a special walnut stain directly to the raw wood. The stain did not take well on wood milled with the grain, and on cross cuts the stain soaked into the wood giving a dark black color. How do we prevent the cross cut problem and promote a uniform acceptance of the stain.
And here was my reply:
“Hey Robert. Uneven staining can be a real pain. There are a few things you can do to even things out in the future. First, you should sand the end-grain to one or two grits higher than the rest of the piece. So if the piece is sanded to 180, you should sand the endgrain to 220 or 320. The finer sanding will help prohibit stain absorption. Another technique is to apply a glue size to the endgrain. Make a 10:1 mixture of water and yellow or white glue. Brush this solution onto the endgrain and give it several hours to dry. Once dry, sand lightly and proceed with staining. The embedded glue will prevent excessive stain absorption. You can also use a light coat of shellac or any sealer to the same end. And remember to always test on scrap or inconspicuous areas to ensure you get the look you are after. Hope these ideas help.”
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For another option, I’ve found a light coat of Watco’s natural Danish Oil will help with this blotching problem common with open grain woods. I believe your answer to the endgrain may be the only way to fix that, however.
Marc, your answer concentrated on end-grain. I have had similar uneven absorption problems when staining face-grain of maple. I would be interested in your comments on face-grain problems.
Thanks
Good point. Uneven absorption in face grain can be prevented by using a light sealer coat of de-waxed shellac (1/2-1 lb cut). There are also commercial conditioners that do a decent job although I never really use them. Now if you plan on adding color (which is usually where the absorption issues show up), you should try spraying dye if you can. Thats the ultimate solution. If you cant spray, then try using a gel stain. Gel stains don’t absorb quite as much as a regular stain and will help prevent major blotchiness.
For the average person, a shellac sealer and gel stain are a g solid method. Just experiment on scrap to get the right balance of shellac. Too much will not let the stain absorb at all.
Posted for Wally.
I have also found that applying boiled linseed oil to the end grain of almost any kind of wood retards the absorption of an oil-based stain. You just have to apply the stain while the oil is still wet otherwise the dried linseed oil may prevent you from getting the desired hue to match the rest of the stained piece.
If you’re a bit skittish about how much stain will be absorbed, try wiping the stain off after a minute and check the result. If it’s too light just apply another coat of stain and keep repeating this process until you match the tone of the rest of the wood.
I also experimented with a latex-based stain and boiled linseed oil on the end grain and was pleased with the results. This experiment was done with pine so I have no idea how it will work with other species of wood.
Mark,
I was just reading Bob Flexner’s book on finishing, and he discussed the issue of endgrain staining darker in one section.
But he said you don’t really have to sand any HIGHER grits than what you sanded the long grain, you just have to sand it BETTER. He said the whole process of end grain getting darker than long grain is because it isn’t sanded as smoothly, so it takes the stain more readily.
He demonstrated with pictures, showing that sanding the endgrain to the same grit, but sanding it longer to smooth it better, produced a finished piece that did not stain any darker than the long grain.
I haven’t yet had a chance to give it a try, but I wondered if you’d read that and what your thoughts were on his process.
Anything that saves me from having to jump up one or two more grits is worth trying, in my book.
Ethan
IT would be very helpful if some of the wood webs had some info on refinishing guitars. I don’t mean the coating of paint and lacqer, but having to sand down a spruce or mahogony finish due to 60 years of pick abuse and heavy lacquer cracking. I just finished sanding down a Kay Kraft from the 1930’s, but the trick is to try to match up the subtle deep flaming from the original..having the center area lighter and the edges going pretty dark. Usually a dark mahogony. Uneven staining is alive and well in this situation, but deep dark staining is also needed, which may not work if the wood is pretreated for uneven staining. Right now I’m looking at some raised grain after staining, and some uneveness..wondering if I can combine some steel wool work to remove just some uneveness and more stain around the edge…also, that deep glow from lacquer coating….most guys aren’t set up at home for spraying, but tung oil layers aftere a single linseed coating have a great look, but don’t expect the magic till after the 6th or 7th coating….
Oh, and it was great fun spilling a whole can of deep mahogony onto the kitchen floor right at the end…totally exhausted, then two more hours of cleaning, ruining mops, then half naked scrubbing and sanding walls and floor before the girls got home. No skin left to play the damn thing with.
Ran out of doors to sample my water base stain on maple cabinets.
I like the way you describe things in depth and detail….very smart and very thorough..
I am trying to stain my own maple kitchen cabinets thinking my experience as a textile designer for 20 years and using dyes and water colors with air brushes would serve me well……..HARDLY!!
I am dead set on succeding with using these water base stains from EcoProcote called TimberSoy because they have no VOC at all. But i find that I can not achieve the irridescence with a custom walnut/oak color that is 50% lighter than the actual walnut color. I would say the weight of the color is like a spice but more walnuty. i want to keep it lighter so as to get the irridesesnce of the maple.
Is there some certified natural oil and natural based stains….really natural, that will allow me this end result that i can do while i move into the house? My family and 2 kids (one 17 year old son) have to move out of my 800 sq ft house and everyone is waiting on me to stain the cabinets… The insurance in spector is coming in 4 days and we are suppose to be there as our primary residence.
THe problem is that i have to wait 7 days for the finish to cure in order to know if i am applying the stain and techniques correctly. I am trying varyations of either dampening the wood with water to raise the grain, -presealing with base, -presealing with finish 3;1, adding stain to a finish, -poping the grain which seems to make the pores darker, sanding 3000 steal wooll, etc etc, etc,,,,
It is the 5 th day and i can scratch the finish and it is worrying me. The manufacturer says to keep waiting. I am not that pleased with that particular sample i am waiting on beacuse it was sprayed on and looks kind of flat and blah. One door has lots of dark pores on frame and maple ply panel, the the other test that was sprayed looks like the stain sits on the surface and i see no grain or dark pores. One section on the sample, i dampned with water and pulled some stain off and i can see some glow, but the color of the stain got weak.
Does anyone have experience with similar products?
HVLP leaves the cleanest look, but too faint a grain, and if i push the stain in after spraying, i think i am opening up the pores more???
I have not done a spray test on hghly sanded doors with 3000 steel wool without any pretreatment so my grain does not get clogged with sealer.
i hope that works,
I ran out of door backs and now i am unscrewing the drawer fronts…
help…I will send a donation for certain to your website beacuse it is a great set up.
Hello Silvana. You are pretty deep into the process so its going to be tricky for me to give advice at this stage of the game, over the internet……
But from the sounds of it, you might be over-complicating the process just a smidge. Check out the following post and video to get a little more insight into how I handle maple. It might give you a few pointers.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/staining-maple-question-of-the-week/
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/73-coloring-blotchy-woods/
Finishing can be as complicated or as simple as we want it to be. I tend to lean on the simple side. Email me after you check out those links and we’ll talk about a strategy for your cabinets.
Dear Marc,
Who me? over complicate? You are on the nose about that. But only because i was thinking that shellac with alchohol was not an eco friendly product to use. So i was stubborn by trying to use the eco products i had originally purchased also as a pretreatment to the staining. But being they are like a gel base, there is no where for the stain to go once i use the base as a pretreatment so i am having a waxy residue that has no where to go so i end up having to buff and buff and buff, and the maple looks washed out.
All these fancy products out there and shellac is the simplest solution.?
Good ole shellac that my Father has been using to set his diamond rings and jewlery since i can remember? And i even use to help him melt it and shape it around the wooden dowels that hold the jewlery pieces!
Once i use the thinned out shellac and the pores get sealed, is my water base stain (which is like the consistancy of melted icecream) is it going to have any where to go?
When i pretreat the maple with other methods, it seems the beard stubble look still remains after i stain with sealer. When i make the sealer ratio to water more concentrated, then the beard stubble dissapears but so does the swirls and irridescnece of the maple and the grain waves.
When i use the shellac method, i am assuming the pretreatment has a diferent affect on the wood than a water based pretreatment which might swell up the wood and open the pores more which will allow more stain to get into the pores also which is good for coloring the maple surface but not to get into those little pores that look like beard stubble…
Am i correct?.
Will the shellac/alcohol method allow the stain to stay out of those pores and only stain the surface and the swirls and waves in the wood?
When i use the base of my water base stain by itself, as a pretreatment, i find that the next stain coat has no where to go because the maple allready took in all it could with the base pretreatment . Is that correct?
SO then, …alcohol and shellac are compatible with water base stains and finishes on top?
After the use of the shellac/alcohol pretreatment, will i still see dark beard stubble on many places?
Your video demo did not show the effect in a close up. DId the lightened walnut settle into the pores and have a black beard stubble showing more on the 2 lb or 1 pound shellac sample?
Which of the 2 showed more illuninsesnce and maple swirls and grain? the 2 lb or 1 lb sample?
Well I certainly can’t argue with wanting to be eco-friendly. Unfortunately, eco-friendly doesn’t always go hand in hand with user-friendly. And you wind up either wasting a lot of material, or possibly even re-doing a project to get the right result.
Regardless of the type of sealer you use (shellac, sanding sealer, etc…), there are degrees of sealing. Its not necessarily an all or none type of thing. So a light coat may sill allow stain penetration. And yes, a light coat of shellac with still allow a water-based stain to penetrate and stain the wood, although the color will be lighter than it would be on raw wood. If your stain isn’t taking, its probably because your sealer coat was too heavy and the wood is completely sealed. So the stain sits on the surface with no where to go.
You mention the beard stubble. This raised grain occurs whenever you get water on the surface. Whenever using water-based products, its a good idea to pre-raise the grain with water. In general, the grain only raises severely on the first exposure to water. So after that first exposure, its a good idea to lightly sand the surface to knock down the fuzzies. After the surface is smooth again, you can proceed with the stain. And you do not want to stain the fuzzy surface. This may give the illusion of accepting more stain, but in reality, your stain is just getting lodged down in between the raised grain, which leads to poor adhesion. Now if you are using shellac or waterbased sealer, you can use that as your first grain-raising coat (shellac will raise the grain slightly). Again, just be sure to sand lightly to remove the raised grain, then proceed with the staining.
And in the demo, the 1lb cut showed a little bit more absorption than the 2lb cut, which is to be expected.
As far as the quality of the surface, you would have a hard time telling the difference between the 2 and l lb cut. Neither obscures the grain in any way. The type of stain you use on top of that pre-sealed surface is probably what will determine how much grain shows through as well as the overall luminescence of the surface. Hope that helps.
I thought I heard “Danielle” on HGTV Color Splash say that you can use a gel stain on kitchen cabinets to change the wood finish without having to remove the finish – just use it to depen and update the color and richness of the shine. My cabinets are treated such that they will not take a regular stain without completely removing the finish. Will a gel stain work on them, then? My goal would be to deepen the color and shine for an upgraded look to nice quality medium brown wood grain cabinets from the late 70’s.
I suppose it depends on the formulation of the gel stain. Some of these stains actually contain a bit of varnish and could potentially be applied over a pre-existing finish. But I would still be concerned about the quality of the bond. I would imagine a good swipe with your fingernail and the finish will come off. If you are going to try this method, I would test it in an inconspicuous area first, and make sure you lightly sand the area with 220 or 320 grit paper prior to staining. That will give you the best shot of getting good adhesion.
Now if you do get the color to stay, you still need to topcoat. The stain itself is not going to be suitable as a topcoat, especially for something like kitchen cabinets. So I would recommend a good coat of poly after the stain. That will give you the shine you are looking for.
Ultimately though, I would probably never do something like this for a customer. I wouldn’t want that dreaded phone call two years later if/when the finish starts to peel.
I stained an unfinished pine bench with a walnut stain and it is a mess. The spindles are not taking the stain and there are heavy brush marks which didnt show up until it dried. Help! What can I do now?
Hi Audrey. Pine is notorious for being difficult to stain. I would just strip or sand the old stain off and try again using the methods and materials mentioned above. Try to get all the color off the wood. Then start over using the precautions mentioned above. I usually recommend a sealer coat of dewaxed shellac, followed by a few coats of a gel stain.