Comments on: Pocket Screws – Question of the Week http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/ Education and entertainment for the modern woodworker. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:19:02 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: thewoodwhisperer http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-48047 thewoodwhisperer Fri, 09 Oct 2009 23:55:13 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-48047 Hey Ray. Not sure what about my comment above makes you think I might be moving toward pocket screw construction. Only occasionally do I find a need or desire for them in my work. That said, I would never criticize someone for using them. I suppose I am what you would call the anti-purist (a live and let live kind of guy). And I won't hesitate to show how to use them on the show, simply because I do feel a lot of people would benefit from understanding what they are and how they work. And they can decide for themselves if its good enough for their projects. So you may see pocket screws show up now and then (like the last part of the Low Entertainment Center episode). Hey Ray. Not sure what about my comment above makes you think I might be moving toward pocket screw construction. Only occasionally do I find a need or desire for them in my work. That said, I would never criticize someone for using them. I suppose I am what you would call the anti-purist (a live and let live kind of guy). And I won’t hesitate to show how to use them on the show, simply because I do feel a lot of people would benefit from understanding what they are and how they work. And they can decide for themselves if its good enough for their projects. So you may see pocket screws show up now and then (like the last part of the Low Entertainment Center episode).

]]> By: Ray http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-48042 Ray Fri, 09 Oct 2009 21:38:48 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-48042 Mark, Hope you are not going the way of pocket screws in your future projects. You may call me a purist, but I believe there is no room in furniture making for pocket screws. They are fine for a construction project or the like, but I see no need in cabinetmaking. You might just as well get your gun out and load your brads and finish nails and go to it. I know of a show which takes this route. Load up and fire away, reminds me of shingling a roof. Mark,
Hope you are not going the way of pocket screws in your future projects. You may call me a purist, but I believe there is no room in furniture making for pocket screws. They are fine for a construction project or the like, but I see no need in cabinetmaking. You might just as well get your gun out and load your brads and finish nails and go to it. I know of a show which takes this route. Load up and fire away, reminds me of shingling a roof.

]]> By: thewoodwhisperer http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-44134 thewoodwhisperer Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:08:36 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-44134 Hey John. First off, I can only speculate as you did based on the information we have access to. And those independent tests usually have questionable results and usually do little more than appeal to a bit of academic curiosity. Furthermore they tend to be inconsistent from test to test. But here's the way I see. Most of these joints are more than strong enough to carry a standard load. So lets do a little calculation. For argument's sake, let's low ball that 700lb shear stress figure and say the joint can only hold 500lbs. Well the entire wait of the piece is not laying on that one joint. If it were a frame with four sides, there would be two joints for each frame piece, making a total of 8 joints. And if each joint is capable of holding 500lbs, that means the whole thing should hold a distributed load of 4000 lbs. Now of course the wood might break and other things may fail at that point. But it illustrates how the strength of multiple joints will work together to keep the whole thing sturdy. So while I would prefer using some sort of wood on wood glue joint for that application, I really thing pocket screws (used properly) should give you enough strength. Just one more opinion for you to consider. :) Good luck! Hey John. First off, I can only speculate as you did based on the information we have access to. And those independent tests usually have questionable results and usually do little more than appeal to a bit of academic curiosity. Furthermore they tend to be inconsistent from test to test. But here’s the way I see. Most of these joints are more than strong enough to carry a standard load. So lets do a little calculation. For argument’s sake, let’s low ball that 700lb shear stress figure and say the joint can only hold 500lbs. Well the entire wait of the piece is not laying on that one joint. If it were a frame with four sides, there would be two joints for each frame piece, making a total of 8 joints. And if each joint is capable of holding 500lbs, that means the whole thing should hold a distributed load of 4000 lbs. Now of course the wood might break and other things may fail at that point. But it illustrates how the strength of multiple joints will work together to keep the whole thing sturdy.

So while I would prefer using some sort of wood on wood glue joint for that application, I really thing pocket screws (used properly) should give you enough strength. Just one more opinion for you to consider. :) Good luck!

]]> By: John http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-44132 John Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:37:52 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-44132 Mark, I'm building a loft bed for my daughter and would like to use my Kreg Jig for some of the joinery. However, I'm concerned about the pocket-screw joint strength in this application. I've read about the "independent testing" proving the joints stability to 700 lbs shear stress, but I'm leery of this vague claim. I'm not an engineer, nor do I have sufficient wood skills (yet) to accurately chop the 14+ m/t joints. This is my first big project and while it's not fine construction I'd like to build a reasonably attractive structure without the persistent fear of collapse. After reading several books on design and joinery I am still at a loss for determining the required joint. Would you lend some advise to a novice. Mark, I’m building a loft bed for my daughter and would like to use my Kreg Jig for some of the joinery. However, I’m concerned about the pocket-screw joint strength in this application. I’ve read about the “independent testing” proving the joints stability to 700 lbs shear stress, but I’m leery of this vague claim. I’m not an engineer, nor do I have sufficient wood skills (yet) to accurately chop the 14+ m/t joints. This is my first big project and while it’s not fine construction I’d like to build a reasonably attractive structure without the persistent fear of collapse. After reading several books on design and joinery I am still at a loss for determining the required joint. Would you lend some advise to a novice.

]]> By: Robert http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-43465 Robert Tue, 05 May 2009 07:51:10 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-43465 I like the design of this table. It is very simple and is very nice to put in your living room I like the design of this table. It is very simple and is very nice to put in your living room

]]> By: Jeff http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11907 Jeff Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:46:54 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11907 Hey Marc,Thanks for answering....I think the real question is for whom are we building ,,,,is it ourselves,our customer,or other woodworkers,or is it for future generations...right know I am building colonial furniture copies using as many hand tools as I can including cut nails which are more fun than brads! But I could not afford a shop completely outfitted with hand and power tools. ..and the sharpening alone is an art itself. but I could not continue my woodworking education without at least trying all techniques old and new.. Hey Marc,Thanks for answering….I think the real question is for whom are we building ,,,,is it ourselves,our customer,or other woodworkers,or is it for future generations…right know I am building colonial furniture copies using as many hand tools as I can including cut nails which are more fun than brads! But I could not afford a shop completely outfitted with hand and power tools. ..and the sharpening alone is an art itself. but I could not continue my woodworking education without at least trying all techniques old and new..

]]> By: Vic http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11877 Vic Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:18:35 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11877 The best way I've heard the explanation for using power tools was this(I don't remember the source, but it was a big name and that's why I remember)"Back in the old days, furniture makers had apprentices to do the grunt work." One might be learning to perfect dovetails, so he'd work on drawers, another might be at the stage of making mortise and tenons, etc. Imagine the time it takes to joint and plane a board by hand! So, we come to the present age. The power tools helps take up the slack of the missing apprentice. A good woodworker still must attend to the finer points by hand. He'll get the majority of a mortise with a router and fine tune with his chisels. Anyway, you get point. Power tools are our extra laborers, but they don't dictate whether a piece is fine furniture. That is dictated by the attention to detail by the craftsman. The best way I’ve heard the explanation for using power tools was this(I don’t remember the source, but it was a big name and that’s why I remember)”Back in the old days, furniture makers had apprentices to do the grunt work.” One might be learning to perfect dovetails, so he’d work on drawers, another might be at the stage of making mortise and tenons, etc. Imagine the time it takes to joint and plane a board by hand! So, we come to the present age. The power tools helps take up the slack of the missing apprentice. A good woodworker still must attend to the finer points by hand. He’ll get the majority of a mortise with a router and fine tune with his chisels. Anyway, you get point. Power tools are our extra laborers, but they don’t dictate whether a piece is fine furniture. That is dictated by the attention to detail by the craftsman.

]]> By: Shotspot http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11876 Shotspot Thu, 13 Dec 2007 03:56:33 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11876 Chris, you should take pride in that table. It looks great. The pocket hole question is a good one. Everybody on the board knows that it is a very strong joint, but the question forces woodworkers that do not want to use them to acknowledge a bit of eliteism. Personally, a couple of my early projects have pocket hole screws. When starting with woodworking, the pocket hole screws allowed me the gratification of completing a project in a reasonable time without having to confront the challenges of joinery. Now, I am still fairly new to woodworking, but I would not use the pocket hole screws on a fine project. As I begin each new project, I try to incorporate a skill that I have not previously used. For me, I think that joinery is one of the first skills to be developed. I would feel like I cut corners to save time with pocket hole screws. I think that 9 out of 10 people will look at a nice piece of custom furniture and compliment it, and move on. The 10th person is the woodworking dork that will get on his hands an knees and look at how you did something. This is not a move by the dork to criticize, but to appreciate the work that you did. Every person looking at the picture of your table can appreciate the attention to detail that you put into your piece. Congrats. Tom Hunt... I would put the screws back. You already have the holes. You might just as well as have the strong joint that goes with them. Chris, you should take pride in that table. It looks great. The pocket hole question is a good one. Everybody on the board knows that it is a very strong joint, but the question forces woodworkers that do not want to use them to acknowledge a bit of eliteism. Personally, a couple of my early projects have pocket hole screws. When starting with woodworking, the pocket hole screws allowed me the gratification of completing a project in a reasonable time without having to confront the challenges of joinery. Now, I am still fairly new to woodworking, but I would not use the pocket hole screws on a fine project. As I begin each new project, I try to incorporate a skill that I have not previously used. For me, I think that joinery is one of the first skills to be developed. I would feel like I cut corners to save time with pocket hole screws.

I think that 9 out of 10 people will look at a nice piece of custom furniture and compliment it, and move on. The 10th person is the woodworking dork that will get on his hands an knees and look at how you did something. This is not a move by the dork to criticize, but to appreciate the work that you did. Every person looking at the picture of your table can appreciate the attention to detail that you put into your piece. Congrats.

Tom Hunt… I would put the screws back. You already have the holes. You might just as well as have the strong joint that goes with them.

]]> By: thewoodwhisperer http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11864 thewoodwhisperer Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:30:34 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11864 Real good question Jeff. Who knows...We can only speculate really. I suppose the vast majority of woodworkers are tool freaks. I am a self-confessed tool freak myself but I really do try to balance it with learning proper hand tool techniques and incorporating them into my routines. I honestly believe that my love of the craft exceeds my love of power tools. For some though, that is not the case. Their hobby is tools. How many guys do you know who love fixing up a car but never get it to the point that they can drive it? I remember when I was building my home theater I was amazed at how many people in the forums were so focused on the building of the damn thing, that watching movies was actually secondary. Its the nature of the beast I suppose. Also, think about the average homeowner. At some point he/she decides they want to do some woodworking. If they didnt have a relative or shop class in their past to introduce them to hand tools, chances are all they know is what they see on TV. How many hand tools do you see in action on HGTV, DIY, and in commercials? So the fist thing they think they need is powertools. Hand tools seem antiquated to them. Real good question Jeff. Who knows…We can only speculate really. I suppose the vast majority of woodworkers are tool freaks. I am a self-confessed tool freak myself but I really do try to balance it with learning proper hand tool techniques and incorporating them into my routines. I honestly believe that my love of the craft exceeds my love of power tools. For some though, that is not the case. Their hobby is tools. How many guys do you know who love fixing up a car but never get it to the point that they can drive it? I remember when I was building my home theater I was amazed at how many people in the forums were so focused on the building of the damn thing, that watching movies was actually secondary.
Its the nature of the beast I suppose. Also, think about the average homeowner. At some point he/she decides they want to do some woodworking. If they didnt have a relative or shop class in their past to introduce them to hand tools, chances are all they know is what they see on TV. How many hand tools do you see in action on HGTV, DIY, and in commercials? So the fist thing they think they need is powertools. Hand tools seem antiquated to them.

]]> By: BarryO http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11856 BarryO Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:28:16 +0000 http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pocket-screws-question-of-the-week/#comment-11856 Marc, I'm with you on this one. To me, pocket screws signify mass-produced, large volume, commodity factory furniture. Some of that may look quite nice, but I wouldn't use pocket screws on anything I would want to consider fine furniture. Kitchen cabinets? Sure. A quick, more utilitarian-type project? Absolutely. But a future heirloom? Nope. Like you, I like to use as few metal fasteners as possible. Ideally, I just use screws for fasntening hinges, knobs, and other hardware. And no Norm-like brads as clamp substitutes! And I'm surprised that Kreg claims they are stronger than M&T. Marc, I’m with you on this one. To me, pocket screws signify mass-produced, large volume, commodity factory furniture. Some of that may look quite nice, but I wouldn’t use pocket screws on anything I would want to consider fine furniture. Kitchen cabinets? Sure. A quick, more utilitarian-type project? Absolutely. But a future heirloom? Nope.

Like you, I like to use as few metal fasteners as possible. Ideally, I just use screws for fasntening hinges, knobs, and other hardware. And no Norm-like brads as clamp substitutes!

And I’m surprised that Kreg claims they are stronger than M&T.

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