32- Pop Goes the Maple
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In this episode, I put the finish on the pencil holder. But its not just any finish. Since we are working with a beautiful curly maple, I think the finish deserves a little extra specia attention. Curly maple looks fantastic with a few coats of an oil based varnish. But it will BLOW YOUR MIND if you “pop” the grain with a dye first. So that’s exactly what we do in this episode. Thanks for watching.
Update
The finishing materials I used in this episode are available from Rockler via the affiliate links below:
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Marc-
Do you recommend any suppliers for the dye? Do you have it in your Amazon store?
Nice job as always!
I will add the links to the products on the front page. They aren’t cooperating at the moment but I will have something up there very soon.
I just finished building a pendulum baby cradle for my first grandchild due in December. I used curly maple because of the beautiful grain, plus, I live in “Tiger Country” in South Louisiana (LSU). I was glad to see your recent video on the pencil holder staining and coating. It gives me an idea now of what I want to do with the cradle.
Thanks a bunch!!!
Hi Marc……….quick, sweet and right to the point. Excellent comparison of both boards. ….Good POP!!!!
I have a finishing/dye question…..Previously you had mentioned using wenge on armoires, in the course of those builds, how did you handle the yellow grain color that becomes exposed when milling. They are leg blanks that I epoxied together (approx 3×3 x6) I know over time it darkens, but the areas retain a dull look. I experimented with some transtints, but know looks to dark. I didn’t try it in shellac and I’m thinking the approach you just showed might work. How did you determine a starting point for the number of transtint drops.
Thanks!!!
Hey there Neil. Thanks for stopping by. The wenge I used didnt really show much yellow grain. I am assuming in wenge, thats the sapwood (not 100% sure). Either way, I simply cut around it or made sure it was in an inconspicuous location.
From what you describe, it sounds like the wood will perk up a bit once it receives a topcoat. But I have to say that I honestly dont like the look of wenge when its finished. Most finishes (especially oil-based), leave the wenge looking much darker than I’d like and it sort of loses that dark brown/black striping contrast that I see in the raw lumber. The wenge pieces I build this summer looked very cool until I put the tung oil on. The grain became very “muddy” and looked more like a bunch of ebonized alder or maple. So what Im saying is those dyed areas might blend in much better when you apply your finish.
As for the transtints, its just experimentation. If you follow the directions on the bottle, you will use the stuff up pretty fast. But in this case I want to use as little dye as possible since I really dont want to change the color of the surface. And that wild grain soaks the dye up like a sponge. So 7-8 drops seems to be adequate for that small amount. But its all trial and error really.
Hope that at least partially answers your question Neil.
Hey Marc,
It’s really odd to me that out of the blue, you stated that General finishes are among your favorite on the market. It’s odd because, well, Charles Neil seems to prefer General finishes. Oddly enough, Charles Neil also has a video on Youtube called “Pop goes the finish”, where he shows how to bring the curl out in wood, kinda like, well, kinda like you did in episode 32. Man, what a coincidence, huh?
lol. What are you implying sir? Who is Charles Neil anyway?!?! Actually i have noticed his posts in the forums but haven’t had a chance to dig into his videos yet.
But if you’ve seen any of my older videos, you would know that my affinity for General Finishes products goes back to my first days of woodworking (something I took from David Marks).
That is funny that the titles of the videos are nearly the same. But if you are looking to make a clever title using the word “pop”, I suppose 9 out of 10 people would title it “Pop goes the something”.
And I might be exposing too much of myself here, but Ill let you in on a little secret. NONE of this is new information. Neither Charles, nor I, will tell you anything that you couldn’t find in a book somewhere. Its presenting it in a simple and digestible format that really makes it unique and worthwhile. We all learned it from somewhere or someone else. So if you look hard enough, you will find lots of “coincidences”.
Hi Marc,
I’ve been enjoying your sites (both this one and woodtalkonline) for a few months now. I think your doing a great job and I really appreciate what your share here… and am impressed that you give honest, objective opinions about tools, blades, etc of companies that you may have a sponsored relationship with (I see many sites that present themselves as objective reviewers but clearly are shills for the vendor). It’s also impressive that you don’t simply remove the negative “hater”-type posts such as those by Ben M. above (You’re a better man than me). Last time I checked many of the processes/techniques encompassed within woodworking go back a year or two… I hope someone doesn’t accuse you of using a table saw next because I’m afraid to report that there is a rumor that someone has already captured this elusive machine on video and posted it to youtube. ;-]
I have some curly cherry and think I’m going to give this a try. Would a darker dye like a dark walnut pop the grain even more or is that just a bad idea? I’ll be clicking through and buying the dye at Rockler. I couldn’t believe how pricey it was though so I looked around for cheaper but it does seem to go for about $17. I did see a site that sells for $13, veenersupplies.com, and would order there if I didn’t need to place an order with Rockler for other items as well. Others may find that site useful though.
Again keep up the great work! I’m a woodworking noob and have a million questions so you’ll probably be hearing from me ad nauseum. Course, I’m still trying to do my due diligence in terms or reading literature and watching instructional DVDs before asking questions. There’s just so much to learn!
Catch ya later,
Charles
Hi Marc
I really enjoyed this video also.
Being a newbie myself, I had a question as to why you did not use General Finishes Seal-a-Cell as the first step instead of the Bulls Eye? I am not being critical, this whole finishing business can be confusing! :)
From what I gather from your site and David Marks’ site – the duo of Seal-a-Cell and then Arm-R-Seal is a solid combo for a great finish. I am just trying to get my head around the difference between the Bull Eye Sealer and the Seal-a-Cell since they seemingly do the same thing?
Thanks again….great work….
Jeff
Thanks for checking out the video guys.
Charles- The first part of your comment had Nicole and I both cracking up. As to your curly cherry, its all about experimentation. The walnut dye will indeed create a major contrast. And possibly to a great effect. But it really depends on the look you are trying to achieve. On my piece, I wanted a mild color change. The curl already looked great and didnt need much help. But if you want a curl that just smacks you in the face from across the room (a good thing), then you might want to play with that walnut dye. Just try it on a scrap piece first and see what you think.
And yes, those dyes are SUPER expensive. Thats why I try to use as little as possible. I usually wait till Rockler has some kind of sale so I can stock up.
Jeff- One of the most annoying things about finishing is the marketing and terminology. As if it wasn’t difficult enough to understand what different finishes do and when to use them, the manufacturers themselves confuse the issue by coming up with marketing terms and labels that only serve to further confuse the consumer.
First let me say that a thinned coat of any finish, be it shellac, lacquer, or varnish, will serve as a “sealer”. Seal-a-Cell can certainly be used as a sealer. But in my opinion, dewaxed shellac is the better material for the job. Primarily because it dries quickly and it is a nearly universal binder. It will do a good job of sealing off any oils or impurities in the wood and allows the next coat of finish to bind tightly. Now in the case of this dye, I don’t believe the Transtint is even oil soluble. Also, since the next step is a good sanding, the quicker it dries, the better. Hope that helps to clear up some of the muddy water.
Marc,
Great video, I learn something from every one you do! Hey any chance you might do a video on finishes??? I too am confused by all the different types, I don’t understand, why you should choose one over the other or even “how” to choose one over the other, guess that is why I always use tung oil, lol…
Awesome Marc. I have a lot of curly stuff in raw form in the basement and now know a lot more about how to try finishing it. Thanks for making the “pop” so easy to understand.
Now if your name was Cesar THAT would be a coincidence!:D Nicole must’ve been busy(no outtakes). Thanks for another cool episode. I assume that “popping” can be done on any figured wood. Any suggestions which woods are the best and which just don’t work well.
Hey Marc,
Great episode! That little bit of dye certainly made a nice difference. I just made couple of Cherry boxes with a little bit of Curly Maple for the panel on the tops. Once I get the hinges on and rub them out, I’ll be posting about them. Too bad I had not seen your video first, I may have tried this technique. I’ll file it away for next time!
A question for you on the Arm-R-Seal vs. Seal-A-Cell. I have been using Arm-R-Seal for a while now and I really like the finish. I do sometime thin it with Naptha for easier application and quick drying. I used it n the boxes I just spoke of and because of their size, it was sometimes difficult to get smoothly into the nooks of the pieces. Can you comment on the differences between the Ar-R-Seal and Seal-A-Cell? Is the latter more like an oil in that you wipe on and off and it goes on very thin? Any other comments you have would be great.
–Mark
Been following for a little while now and it is great to see honest and open discussions. I have a question for you relating to just this sort of thing. I am currently making some night stands out of quarter sawn white oak and want to “pop” (sorry to copy you just can’t think of another word) the grain. I would also like to fill the grain to get the ultimate smooth finish. any suggestions and can you do both. I was going to experiment but I believe that if you can ask a question and save the whole experimentation process it’s really a smarter way of working.
oh ya and remember imitation is the greatest form of flattery.
Mark- You ask a very good question. What exactly is the difference between Seal-a-Cell and Arm-R-Seal? Unfortunately, the product labelling doesn’t help us much does it. One thing is clear. Both are varnish. Now some believe that Seal-a-Cell also contains some pure oil, qualifying it as an oil/varnish mixture. While I wouldn’t bet my house on it, I have seen no evidence that it does. Any oil/varnish mixture I’ve used in the past has had several traits in common. First, you have ALOT of working time. The oil component allows you to let the finish soak in for 5-10 minutes then wipe off the excess. Seal-a-Cell usually tacks up in that time. Also, when you place a drop of the material on a non-porous surface (like glass), Seal-a-Cell dries to a flat smooth film. This is a characteristic of pure varnish. Oil/varnish blends on the other hand usually dry in a wrinkly puddle. I find find it relatively easy to build up a film with Seal-a-Cell. This is something that seems to take longer with most oil/varnish blends. So my best educated guess? Seal-a-Cell is nothing more than a diluted varnish made with a resin or combination of resins that impart an attractive amber color to the workpiece.
Arm-R-Seal is clearly pure varnish. Again diluted for a wiping formula. This material is pretty close to clear and is supposed to have a high solids count meaning it results in a tougher finish that you would get with Seal-a-Cell. This is why a coat or two of Seal-a-Cell followed by a few coats of Arm-R-Seal gives you a reasonably durable finish with a nice color to boot.
Baldy- Just an opinion so take it for what its worth. Part of what Q-sawn white oak so beautiful is its grain and pore structure. It tends to lose some character when you fill the grain or even when you put on too much finish. Just food for thought.
Now to answer your question. When I think of “popping” the grain, I think of figured wood. Curly, quilted, flame, beeswing, etc… All things resulting from wild grain. Quarter sawn white oak (QSWO), on the other hand, features an amazing medullary ray fleck pattern. These flecks seem to not absorb as much color as the rest of the wood, so they stand out a bit when stained and especially when fumed with ammonia. So you are kind of looking at the opposite situation that we have with the maple. This is why I dont really think of the popping technique when working with QSWO. So dying the QSWO can give you wonderful results, but certainly not the same thing we see with curly woods.
So to specifically answer your question, if you still want to dye the wood and fill the pores. I would fill the grain using a commercial pore filler like Barleys. Make sure you get the color you want. Follow the instructions to fill the pores. I cover this procedure in one of my early videos on refnishing.
Once dry, you will have to sand the filler off the surface. Once you are back to bare wood, you can then apply your dye or stain as you normally would.
I hate to throw so much at you. If you want more information, email me with your specific questions and Id be more than happy to explain further.
Marc you are the man!! Love your answers always straight forward and to the point. You hit my concern right on the head about the graining and filling. I didn’t want to lose the grain features and wasn’t sure if filling the pores would hinder the appearance so to make a long comment shorter I am going to give it a coat of nice dark walnut stain (match other pieces I have) and topcoat it with probably a waterbased varathane but on my daughters step stool I used a varnish and kinda liked that too except the smell. (shop attached to house) I noticed that you don’t use varathane products and very little water based. I have had really good result with them and the water based products won’t yellow with age. I guess it all comes down to personal preference eh!!
After watching the videos of furnitology I am happy that you don’t use cheesy music and catch phrases!!
Anyhow cheers and thanks for the advice.
baldy
FYI guys. If you’re going to order the TransTint from Rockler, they’re having a free shipping offer right now. Code U8101 when you go to check out.
Hello wood whisperer,
I am making a much bigger progect out of partly curly maple and I am wondering if I make a much bigger mixture and use it over time will effect the way the finish works if it is stored or made in larger quanities?
Thanks
Hey Wyatt. The limiting factor in the shelf life of that mixture is the shellac. Most shellac has a shelf life of about 6 months, but the SealCoat stuff I use claims to last a few years. I haven’t tested their claims. So adding the dye doesn’t really affect the longevity of the mixture. You can always make a mixture of just dye and alcohol, store that, and add some to your shellac as needed. Just write down the recipe. And keep the dye mixture in a cool dark place.
Hi thanks for the podcast i realy like it. No matter how many books i read it helps to see some one work with wood and share problems and solution as most visters to this sight know there more to wood working than a tape measure and hand saw many wont share there skills like you and your cool to whatch. you are a great craftsman thank you !
Marc – When applying wipe on finishes like oil and wipe on gel stains, do I have to use cotton rags? Can I use blue shop paper towels? Also, if I do use cotton rags, do you normally throw them out or do you wash and re-use the rags? If you wash them, what would you recommend? I don’t think my wife would appreciate throwing oily rags in the washing machine.
Hey Anderson. I usually use cotton rags simply because they are so soft and also lint-free. Now shop towels are usually lint free but they arent the softed material in the world. So the first few coats can probably be applied using the shop paper towels. But once you start wiping on your finish coats, it might be a good time to switch to cotton cloths. And I do not reuse them. Well let me rephrase that. I will reuse them over the course of a single project. But I will not try to save them after a project. Its just not worth the time, effort, and expense. But if you are applying a coat this morning, and you know you will be applying another coat tonight, just soak the rag in mineral spirits and then squeeze out the excess. The roll it up an place it in a ziplock bag. Be sure to squeeze out all of the air first. Do this after each application of oil/varnish, and you should get 3-4 good uses out of a single rag.
Hi Mark,
Thanks for these fine episodes. I have been searching to find a way to color hard maple (not curly or any other types of hard maple), like red mahagony, for some reason, and keep those nice figures (grain patterns) that HM offers. I practiced with dye then sealing it, next using oil-wipe-on stain. But, as soon as I put the dye on the maple it covers the figures. I am aware of HM properties, like tide grain. Is there a good recipe to color HM and keep the figures?
Hey Habib. Its important to realize before you start a major color change like that, that its going to be an uphill battle. Hard maple can be splotchy and is not the easiest wood to take to that dark red color. You are trying to make a blonde wood red, and therein lies the problem. You have to add so much color that it winds up obscuring the grain. Dyes are great because they generally do not obscure the grain. But add enough of it, and then throw a wipe on stain on top of it and its no surprise that you observed the results you did. This is exactly why I try to avoid drastic color shifts. I try to get as close as possible with the hardwood itself, and my life becomes a whole lot easier come time for finishing.
If I had to do what you are trying to do, my method would not be all that different. I would probably pre-seal with very light coat of shellac, sand down, then apply a water-based dye. Follow up with another very light coat of shellac. Then I would finish up with a gel stain. The gel stain will allow you to control the color a bit so that you can darken the lighter areas appropriately. After that, its time for a top coat.
And sometimes, the grain is obscured and there just isn’t a whole lot you can do about it. Maybe someone else has a suggestion for getting that mahogany color without obscuring the grain.
Hi Mark,
I realize this video was posed a while ago, but hopefully you have time to respond.
I am looking into making a platform bed (potentially out of curly maple) and I was wondering what you think about using this process on the entire piece. I was thinking about this as you compared the two pieces of maple at the end, and thought using the dye process might make the piece a bit overwhelming since it’s so large. Your thoughts?
Thanks!
Hi Matt. No worries man. All comments are moderated, which means I get to read and respond to every comment that comes through the site (no matter how old).
This process is definitely suitable for larger pieces as well. Its a heck of a lot of work, but if you are really looking to get that killer figure, its probably worth the time and effort. Keep in mind if you aren’t coloring the piece, and you just want to give it some extra pop, you can always try the tried and true method of coating with boiled linseed oil first. Then apply an oil-based topcoat. That should give you a beautiful look (if you are going natural).
As far as being overwhelming, that is certainly a real possibility. Too much of a good thing can be bad. I have seen some pieces that were very elegant and beautiful in their design, but the over-abundance of figure can be a distraction. Now that ventures into the area of taste and preference. And you are the only person who can ultimately answer that part of the question.
can i use a clear coat finish after using the shelack with the dye
Yes absolutely!
Hi Marc,
Just tried the dye and 4 coats of seal-a-cell looks great! I don’t think anyone has asked this question yet? After putting on the 4 coats of seal-a-cell, would you recommend a couple of coats of arm-r-seal as well? The project is a keepsake box.
Thanks for all the great info
Steve
Hey Steve. Good question. Yes I would recommend a coat or two of Arm-R-Seal. Since the making of this video, I have learned more about these finishes and I have since changed my thinking just a bit.
Seal-a-Cell seems to be very similar to Arm-R-Seal, only the finish is a little softer once cured. But after doing a number of test boards, I can’t really see any substantial benefit to using Seal-a-Cell at all. So I just go straight to Arm-R-Seal these days.
Now if you still like using Seal-a-Cell, I recommend only using 1-2 coats, then switching over to Arm-R-Seal. But in your case right now, I would say go ahead and add a couple coats of Arm-R-Seal and you should be fine.
is there a way one can make a piece of maple look like quarter sawn oak?
Not convincingly. Maple and oak differ dramatically in not just color, but grain patterns. So at least to my eye, you won’t be able to recreate that.
i have a very old table…..late 1890′s……that the table top was pretty ruined..paint stains,etc….so i sanded the top and it looks like maple wood but the rest of the table legs, base, etc LOOKS like quarter sawn oak! How can this be? I guess the base and legs could have been made of quarter sawn oak, but the top look like the rest of the table until i sanded it??????????
Sounds crazy but it happens. I once refinished a table where the top was mahogany and the legs were pine. The stain was so dark and thick that you couldn’t tell. But once the stain was removed, it was plain as day. Oddly enough, the client chose to keep it natural and didn’t mind the difference.
I’m about to use dyes for the first time. If I’m going to apply a water based dye over the wood (not in shellac)what grit would you sand to first?
I wouldn’t do anything differently. Probably would go to 180 or so.
Marc,
Love your site and the podcasts. I’m very new to this game and have a few questions. I’m buidling a clock out of curly maple and have tried the method above. I’d like to have a super high gloss finish, but every Polyurethane can I look at says do not apply over shellac; any suggestions? Also, I live in Halifax, Nova Scotia and cannot find Arm-r-seal anywhere, is there a reasonable facsimile out there? Thanks and keep up the great work on the site.
Hey Jim. Welcome to the site and welcome to the “game”. Its an addicting one! :)
So this is one of those cases of labels not being clear enough. There are some folks who believe that you can’t apply polyurethane over shellac that contains wax. Now I say some believe it because there are a number of folks who think its BS. And honestly, I have never heard someone have adhesion issues with poly over waxed shellac. But if you are using dewaxed shellac, its a moot point anyway. And I do recommend you use dewaxed. Im not sure what products you have on hand so I don’t know if your shellac has wax in it. But if its pretty much clear all the way through, its probably dewaxed. And dewaxed shellac is what I like to think of as a “universal binder”. Pretty much any finish will bind to it, including polyurethane. And Arm-R-Seal is really just a urethane blend, so any high quality varnish/poly will do the trick.
Good luck!
Hi Mark,
I’m a long time fan of your videos.
As for now nobody asked the question about using oil finish and shellac. When you put shellac (even diluted just to pop the grain) as first coat it just seals (more or less) the wood. And the way oil works is to dive into wood as much as possible and suddenly it meets shellac which says – sorry end of journey, I’m here. So IMHO using shellac makes it impossible to use oil based finishes (pure oil or oil/vax mixture). Is it true or not?
I’d like to try to pop up the grain, but also like my oil finishes.
Regards
P.
Hey Piotr. I sure hop its not impossible or else I am full of sh**! lol. Shellac does seal the wood, but its not an “all or none” situation. The more dilute the shellac is, the less it seals the wood, and the more an oil finish can absorb. So if you apply a light coat of shellac (1lb or less), followed by sanding, you should have absolutely no problem using an oil finish. True, it might not soak up quite as much of the oil, but it still soaks up enough to cure properly. Now if you use to thick of a shellac mixture, you could very well seal off the surface and the oil will just pool. But that’s why we use such a dilute solution.
And keep in mind that if you don’t want to add any shellac to your dye, you don’t have to. In fact, many people don’t. Its just one method available to you. Good luck.
I guess by now you’ve figured out that ‘Ben M’ is Charles Neill’s online name LOL!
Both of you guys are great in your own way, keep up the good work.
Great video! I’m planning a project uing the same type woods as you have shown here. One other project I have uses lacewood so what techniques would you use to “pop” the grain?
I am building a dresser. I will need to make more of the shellac / dye mix than you used on the pencil holder. Do I just multiply the recipe to fit my needs? Also , how does this recipe look on Birdseye maple. I purchased a nice 8′ long 13″ wide birdseye maple board for the top of the dresser.
I appreciate your help!
Greg
Hey Greg. Personally, for birdseye maple, I wouldn’t really follow this procedure. I usually reserve this for highly figured woods like tiger maple. So if you want a little extra color on your birdseye maple, then sure, you can do this procedure. But you might be better served with a stain or dye. But speaking personally again, I just prefer leaving birdseye alone. Just a nice oil-based varnish or a lacquer looks incredible!
Marc,
What dye colour did you use to bring out the pop in the maple for this project?
I should have said it in the video but if I recall correctly, it was Vintage Maple.
Thank-you!
I enjoy your videos. You often answer my questions without knowing that you are answering questions. It is helpful to not only listen to instruction but to see the techniques being demonstrated.
Shattoyance? (sp?)
chatoyance – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatoyancy